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Give it a rest, Life. Please.
Jesus is God.
- Thread starter jzeidler
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Give it a rest, Life. Please.
I am focused on an ontological level - nothing more.
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Indeed, so am I. Do you have a question?
As far as physical ontology Yeshua says this:
Matthew 11:11 KJV
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And this:
John 3:6 KJV
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
If therefore you say that Yeshua was only a 100% physical man, having been born of Mariam, then how is it that he says Yohanan is greater than himself? (for in that view they were both born of women). But by the same reckoning the Trinitarian view has the same problem, even a gaping hole in their theory, for they say that Yeshua is both 100% man and 100% God. Thus one could say to them also, (and I do), how is it that Yeshua says Yohanan is greater than his own "100% man half", (if that makes any sense), which was supposedly born of Mariam? No matter what else they say, if they say that Yeshua was/is 100% man then he clearly says that Yohanan was greater; for that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And who is the least in the kingdom of the heavens? The Son of Man was made a little lower or lesser than the messengers and-or angels.
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John was a prophet, nothing more. Read Luke 7:28 KJV. Jesus never said John was greater than Himself. Rather John said this of Jesus: "He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose." John 1:27 (KJV)
Scriptures also say that "God is Love" which would make Love, in its finality, the equalizer. Jesus was full of Grace and Truth. There can be nothing greater in man except glorification. So, where is independence in that and yet it is as Jesus, the man, demonstrated? "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:21 (KJV)
Another way of looking at this is to interpret this verse as meaning to be equal with God as the word "know" signifies: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 (KJV) Why I say that is because that verse implies what God's intention was from the beginning, i.e., that He would have an "intimate" relationhip with man that would finalize itself in the Godhead in Glorified human flesh.. Jesus, the man, was the forerunner in this. The first all others must conform to.
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Elia
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Bs"d
No.
You see gods where there aren't any.
And that is one too many. Therefore the holy spirit is no separate God or separate person, and no god.
There is only one God who IS ONE, and that is Y-H-W-H.
“This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no god.”
Isaiah 44:6
Fallacy. You cannot deny the words of Yeshua to prove that he did not say what you do not wish him to have said, (well, you can but then why would I listen to you after that?). He said what he said so why should it matter to me whether you believe it or not? Additionally where did I say that I myself believe the arguments I was writing against? Additionally why should I believe you over Yeshua when you say that Yohanan "was a prophet, nothing more"? Yeshua says Yohanan is MUCH MORE than a Prophet in the very same passage and the word used there means superabundance or super-abounding, that is, way over just a mere prophet, and then in that very same passage Yeshua quotes from Exodus 23:20a and says that Yohanan is that Malak. You say he is a prophet and nothing more. Your statement is in direct opposition to what Yeshua says in the same passage. Three strikes in one swing!
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Fallacy. You cannot deny the words of Yeshua to prove that he did not say what you do not wish him to have said, (well, you can but then why would I listen to you after that?). He said what he said so why should it matter to me whether you believe it or not? Additionally where did I say that I myself believe the arguments I was writing against? Additionally why should I believe you over Yeshua when you say that Yohanan "was a prophet, nothing more"? Yeshua says Yohanan is MUCH MORE than a Prophet in the very same passage and the word used there means superabundance or super-abounding, that is, way over just a mere prophet, and then in that very same passage Yeshua quotes from Exodus 23:20a and says that Yohanan is that Malak. You say he is a prophet and nothing more. Your statement is in direct opposition to what Yeshua says in the same passage. Three strikes in one swing!
If I am wrong, which I am not, . . . . so what?
OMT: You don't know "Yeshua" to understand why he said what He said in the way He said it.
Then why don't you tell us all why Yeshua said:
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:"
Again, it says what it says; if you subvert his words it only shows that it is you who does not know him.
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Indeed, it does say what it says.
You take one verse of scripture, strip it from its moorings and build a doctrine. Amazing! But, dishonest.
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. By whom was John conceived?
How is it dishonest to accept a clear emphatic statement from the Master for what it plainly says? You make yourself a false accuser while at the same time you do not answer the simple question which was asked of you. I never said Yeshua was not born of Spirit but I did also already quote his statement from John 3:6 which you ignored in your previous comments to me after I had just posted it, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." However this was not the question to you because you responded the way in which you did, (with nothing but accusations). So please answer the question which was asked of you: please explain what Yeshua means by the quoted statement since you say that I do not know him and therefore cannot understand what he means. Also, in addition because of your new accusation; please show how I have "stripped the statement from its moorings" as you now accuse. Again, the statement says what it says, and now you have even agreed with me even though in the same breath you cast a new unfounded accusation.
Again, the question to you: please tell us all why Yeshua said:
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:"
And also please answer this new question:
Do you believe Yeshua was born of a woman or not?
If he claimed to be God, as Trinitarians say he does, then he is not God because he says so:
John 5:31 KJV
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
John 5:31 YLT
31 'If I testify concerning myself, my testimony is not true;
And in the above context he is speaking of the Son of God, (John 5:22-26) and of the Son of Man, (John 5:27). Thus any argument that Yeshua "claims to be God" is nullified by the Testimony of Yeshua himself.
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Sorry troops, you are all own your own. I'll not reply to any of that. Maybe take it up with GT or Keypurr. PPS would probably have enough Greek to convolute any further discussion and be a persuasion for you change the subject..
Yes, of course, no answer from the false accuser.
keypurr
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Be advised that I agree with daqq.
When you ask a person that question from Matthew 11:11, and they believe in a literal physical virgin birth, they cannot answer it because the answer burns down their entire paradigm to the ground. For if Yeshua was literally physically born of a woman, (Mariam), then he clearly says that Yohanan is greater than himself in that passage. What is the Master telling us? He is not physically born of a physical woman, (that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit). Who then is Mariam? Yerushalaim of above is our mother, (covenant), after the typology of Sarah, Rachel, and so on and so on until Mariam. It is therefore yet another allegory which carnal man has forced into a literal fleshly and physical dogma. Paul even gives a veiled warning about such things in his words to Timothy and in those same words we find one of only three usages of somatikos, which is also used in Luke 3:22 concerning the Holy One who descended from the heavens, in somatiko-corporeal-bodily form as a dove, at the immersion of Yeshua:
1 Timothy 4:6-8 KJV
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily [somatikos] exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
On the surface the reader generally gets the impression that he or she has found a rare glimpse into a private mundane conversation between a teacher and his student talking about the lack of the importance of physical exercise and the need to avoid, (the literal physical interpretation of), tales and fables, (muthos-myths), but nothing could be further from the truth; this is pure doctrine, (Paul is crafty by his own admission). The word rendered "profane" in the above is from belos, which literally means "a threshold", and thus implies elementary entry level tales and fables. He essentially tells the reader here that the virgin birth and infancy narratives are allegories, that is, "Jewish fables" or "old wives' tales", not that they are not true in a supernal and spiritual sense, and not that they are not important, but rather that they must be understood for what they are: the milk of the word for babes in Messiah. The real meat, (the Dove), is at the immersion of Yeshua; when a child becomes a Son.
Capability vs Actuality
The point is - if Jesus is wholly man - in any meaningful sense, he s/h the capability of operating independent of an incarnated deity.
Not sure what direction you are going - but the inquiry sounds good !