God's Truth
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There is ONLY One God, and He is the Father.
Since Jesus is God, then he must be that One and only God, the Father.
Jesus is God.
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There is ONLY One God, and He is the Father.
Since Jesus is God, then he must be that One and only God, the Father.
God's Truth
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This scripture proves that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and this scripture proves that there is One God shown to us in two.
2 Samuel 23:2 "The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue.
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I took the liberty of rewriting your question:
1. Not if human equality was "actual". 2. Not if Love is "actual". . . Not if the two are one in LOVE. If we love God we can do as we please, however, because of the same love TO us, God will be the only we will want to please. That was the life of Jesus because His love TO His Father was such that it glorified Him with the same glory that He knew, by faith, would be returned to Him: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them [the Disciples would also know it would be by faith they could only receive it] ; that they may be one, even as we are one". . . .". . that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. "And now, O Father, glorify me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". John 17:22,13,5(KJV)
Can you see that?? The "humanity" of Jesus was the representation of "perfect humanity"; humanity as God intended it when He created Adam.
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Total misunderstanding of the nature of God.
Jesus is God.
How do you get around Rev. 22 when verses 12 - 13 have the Alpha and Omega speaking, and then 16 reveals that it is Jesus talking?
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When you ask a person that question from Matthew 11:11, and they believe in a literal physical virgin birth, they cannot answer it because the answer burns down their entire paradigm to the ground. For if Yeshua was literally physically born of a woman, (Mariam), then he clearly says that Yohanan is greater than himself in that passage. What is the Master telling us? He is not physically born of a physical woman, (that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit). Who then is Mariam? Yerushalaim of above is our mother, (covenant), after the typology of Sarah, Rachel, and so on and so on until Mariam. It is therefore yet another allegory which carnal man has forced into a literal fleshly and physical dogma. Paul even gives a veiled warning about such things in his words to Timothy and in those same words we find one of only three usages of somatikos, which is also used in Luke 3:22 concerning the Holy One who descended from the heavens, in somatiko-corporeal-bodily form as a dove, at the immersion of Yeshua:
1 Timothy 4:6-8 KJV
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily [somatikos] exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
On the surface the reader generally gets the impression that he or she has found a rare glimpse into a private mundane conversation between a teacher and his student talking about the lack of the importance of physical exercise and the need to avoid, (the literal physical interpretation of), tales and fables, (muthos-myths), but nothing could be further from the truth; this is pure doctrine, (Paul is crafty by his own admission). The word rendered "profane" in the above is from belos, which literally means "a threshold", and thus implies elementary entry level tales and fables. He essentially tells the reader here that the virgin birth and infancy narratives are allegories, that is, "Jewish fables" or "old wives' tales", not that they are not true in a supernal and spiritual sense, and not that they are not important, but rather that they must be understood for what they are: the milk of the word for babes in Messiah. The real meat, (the Dove), is at the immersion of Yeshua; when a child becomes a Son.
How do you get around Rev. 22 when verses 12 - 13 have the Alpha and Omega speaking, and then 16 reveals that it is Jesus talking?
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Originally Posted by Aner
Capability vs Actuality
The point is - if Jesus is wholly man - in any meaningful sense, he s/h the capability of operating independent of an incarnated deity.
I took the liberty of rewriting your question:
1. Not if human equality was "actual". 2. Not if Love is "actual". . . Not if the two are one in LOVE. If we love God we can do as we please, however, because of the same love TO us, God will be the only we will want to please. That was the life of Jesus because His love TO His Father was such that it glorified Him with the same glory that He knew, by faith, would be returned to Him: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them [the Disciples would also know it would be by faith they could only receive it] ; that they may be one, even as we are one". . . .". . that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. "And now, O Father, glorify me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". John 17:22,13,5(KJV)
Can you see that?? The "humanity" of Jesus was the representation of "perfect humanity"; humanity as God intended it when He created Adam.
Now that's intriguing. I cannot answer for the Man but I do not see where the statement was a question to begin with, (and it clearly says, "The point is"). However you indeed turned a statement into a question! Also intriguing: you turn all of the present tense phrases concerning Yeshua into past tenses, for example, in your reworking of the statement, "Jesus is" becomes "Jesus was", and "he s/h (should have)" becomes "had he", (which is also where the statement evolves into a question in the machinations of your imagination, I suppose). Then, in your own commentary, you say much more the same, such as, "That was the life of Jesus", and, "His love TO His Father was", and again, "Can you see that?? The "humanity" of Jesus was".
Tisk, tisk, I know what that means in your overall doctrine, smitty, :Shimei: :chuckle:
Daqq, you of all people should know that Jesus Is God !!
Jesus is God.
Daqq,
Well played!
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Daqq,
Well played!
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How do you get around Rev. 22 when verses 12 - 13 have the Alpha and Omega speaking, and then 16 reveals that it is Jesus talking?
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I have no need "to get around it" because everything Messiah claims in those passages concerns one extraordinary element and that element is called TIME. Concerning everything inside of time Messiah Yeshua is the Master; but when all things are subdued, then comes the Telos, the End, the Point aimed at, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom unto Elohim, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is Death. For "He has put all things under his feet." But when He says, all things are put under him, it is manifest that He, the Father, is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that the Father may be all in all. As for Alpha and Omega, like Father like Son, that is not a problem for me because Messiah is the only begotten Elohim, (not born of a physical woman).
Daqq,
As always, I should have read slower.
Awesome exposition and use of the greek!
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Now if you had only said "Messiah Yeshua is Elohim" we would have agreed. But you did not differentiate between the man Yeshua and the Son of Man who descended from the heavens.
Jesus is God.
Excellent!
And then again, you are marking things by time.
Interesting approach.
Perhaps I misjudged the write up.
So you acknowledge that Jesus was and is, but are differentiating between the Father and Son?
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Excellent!
And then again, you are marking things by time.
Interesting approach.
Perhaps I misjudged the write up.
So you acknowledge that Jesus was and is, but are differentiating between the Father and Son?
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Revelation 22:13
13 εγω το αλφα και το ω ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος η αρχη και το τελος
πρωτος = Protos = First
εσχατος = Eschatos = Last
αρχη = Arche = Beginning ~ Commencement
τελος = Telos = End ~ Point Aimed At
Sorry to inform you but outside of time there is no first, last, beginning, or end. You have a Messenger sent into this realm to lead you back to the Father: follow him back to the Father, (His Word does not return to Him void).
Revelation 22:13
13 εγω το αλφα και το ω ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος η αρχη και το τελος
πρωτος = Protos = First
εσχατος = Eschatos = Last
αρχη = Arche = Beginning ~ Commencement
τελος = Telos = End ~ Point Aimed At
Sorry to inform you but outside of time there is no first, last, beginning, or end.
You have a Messenger sent into this realm to lead you back to the Father: follow him back to the Father.
His Word does not return to Him void.
So you indeed acknowledge Jesus as God, but are expressing the unique difference between the Father and the Son?
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How can the Right Arm of YHWH not be God? And to whom has the Arm of YHWH been revealed? However the Right Arm of YHWH does whatsoever YHWH commands him to do, (and he does not return to the Father void), and therefore they two are not equal. That is your Elder brother; he has never broken any of the commandments of the Father, and is ever with the Father, and all things of the Father are his, and yet when was there a sacrifice for him that he might celebrate with his fellows? You have a fatted calf slain for you, do you not? Will you not even offer up a kid of the goats for him? Do you not have a kid to offer up according to the commandment? Kiss the Son, lest he be just a little angry and you perish from the Way: blessed are all those who put their trust in the Right Arm of YHWH, mighty to save.
So, I'm confessing. The way you wrote those last two posts were way too smart for me to evaluate quickly.How can the Right Arm of YHWH not be God? And to whom has the Arm of YHWH been revealed? However the Right Arm of YHWH does whatsoever YHWH commands him to do, (and he does not return to the Father void), and therefore they two are not equal. That is your Elder brother; he has never broken any of the commandments of the Father, and is ever with the Father, and all things of the Father are his, and yet when was there a sacrifice for him that he might celebrate with his fellows? You have a fatted calf slain for you, do you not? Will you not even offer up a kid of the goats for him? Do you not have a kid to offer up according to the commandment? Kiss the Son, lest he be just a little angry and you perish from the Way: blessed are all those who put their trust in the Right Arm of YHWH, mighty to save.
I'm going back and editing my replies.
10 points for Daqq.
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Well spoken Daqq.Revelation 22:13
13 εγω το αλφα και το ω ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος η αρχη και το τελος
πρωτος = Protos = First
εσχατος = Eschatos = Last
αρχη = Arche = Beginning ~ Commencement
τελος = Telos = End ~ Point Aimed At
Sorry to inform you but outside of time there is no first, last, beginning, or end. You have a Messenger sent into this realm to lead you back to the Father: follow him back to the Father, (His Word does not return to Him void).
I just learned a thing or two.
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J
Admittedly I am looking a long way back on this point - however, I did actually follow through to the link.
Please note that the link simply provides the standard, cherry-picked vaticanist/evangelical screed - and completely ignores the severe flaw of denying the human person of Christ - AND the repeated, clear and formal statements that Jesus is a man (NOT "wholly man", not "human nature", etc - but A MAN - pure and simple)
I thought follow-up would be helpful - because the unlearned are easily able to be turned aside with such a slanted presentation.
Best
Aner
How does that do anyone any good if you are not going to elaborate and say why?