Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again 7djengo7,
Even though the Bible NOWHERE states that Jesus is NOT YHWH, nevertheless, YOU CLAIM that Jesus is NOT YHWH. Since you and I both know that the Bible NOWHERE states that Jesus is NOT YHWH, why do YOU CLAIM that Jesus is NOT YHWH? You got your doctrine that Jesus is NOT YHWH from somewhere OTHER THAN the Bible. So, from where did you get your doctrine that Jesus is NOT YHWH?
I have given sufficient Scripture that defines that Yahweh is God the Father. How do you understand Psalm 110:1 and Acts 2:34-36, Psalm 8:1,4-6 and Matthew 11:25-27? Your reasoning and questions cannot stand up to these Scriptures, and you retreat by asking your questions again.

Also in reference to your other recent Posts, I believe that John 17:3 teaches that God the Father is the Only True God, and God the Father sent His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. What school of philosophy teaches you to come up with your type of questions, rather than seeking the simple clear teaching of the Scriptures? What instinct prompts you to be abusive in some of your Posts, for example Post #1575, and in so doing also gain the endorsement of JudgeRightly, who thus endorses your abuse?

Kind regards
Trevor
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Greetings again 7djengo7,I have given sufficient Scripture that defines that Yahweh is God the Father. How do you understand Psalm 110:1 and Acts 2:34-36, Psalm 8:1,4-6 and Matthew 11:25-27? Your reasoning and questions cannot stand up to these Scriptures, and you retreat by asking your questions again.

Also in reference to your other recent Posts, I believe that John 17:3 teaches that God the Father is the Only True God, and God the Father sent His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. What school of philosophy teaches you to come up with your type of questions, rather than seeking the simple clear teaching of the Scriptures? What instinct prompts you to be abusive in some of your Posts, for example Post #1575, and in so doing also gain the endorsement of JudgeRightly, who thus endorses your abuse?

Kind regards
Trevor

Your statement is true and well stated.
 

MennoSota

New member
How many Armstrongites are on this board? Seems like a lot of cults are roaming TOL.
From Genesis to Revelation we see the Being known as God revealed in 3 person's. From the first chapter God speaks in the plural. He then reveals Himself in God the Holy Spirit, God the Son and God the Father. These revelations connect the Trinity. Then we see all three person's together at Jesus baptism.
 

Dartman

Active member
Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!
 

MennoSota

New member
Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!

It's not impossible. You just say it's impossible because your guru said so.

"Before Abraham was, I AM."
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings MennoSota,
How many Armstrongites are on this board? Seems like a lot of cults are roaming TOL.
I am most probably a different variety to many others, but we share the fact that the Scriptures do not teach the Trinity, and recognise it was developed in the 3rd and 4th centuries by a corrupt church and based in part from Greek philosophy and a misunderstanding of the NT Scriptures and a failure to understand the OT revelation concerning God.
From Genesis to Revelation we see the Being known as God revealed in 3 person's. From the first chapter God speaks in the plural.
Yes, this is God the Father and the Angels Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5-6.
He then reveals Himself in God the Holy Spirit, God the Son and God the Father.
If you are referring to Matthew 28:19, it is true that God the Father, and His Son our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, and God’s power the Holy Spirit have one Name.
These revelations connect the Trinity. Then we see all three person's together at Jesus baptism.
God the Father anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Certainly does not add up to co-equal, co-eternal and other concepts.
"Before Abraham was, I AM."
John 8:24,28 in the immediate context translates this phrase as “I am he” connecting with the theme of whether Jesus is the Christ. John 8:58 is not a direct allusion to Exodus 3:14, which is better translated as “I will be” as per Tyndale and RV and RSV margins. Many of the above concepts have been explained in this thread and others, but Trinitarians simply whitewash over the beautiful detail and overall picture presented in the Scriptures of Truth.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

MennoSota

New member
Greetings MennoSota, I am most probably a different variety to many others, but we share the fact that the Scriptures do not teach the Trinity, and recognise it was developed in the 3rd and 4th centuries by a corrupt church and based in part from Greek philosophy and a misunderstanding of the NT Scriptures and a failure to understand the OT revelation concerning God. Yes, this is God the Father and the Angels Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5-6. If you are referring to Matthew 28:19, it is true that God the Father, and His Son our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, and God’s power the Holy Spirit have one Name. God the Father anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Certainly does not add up to co-equal, co-eternal and other concepts. John 8:24,28 in the immediate context translates this phrase as “I am he” connecting with the theme of whether Jesus is the Christ. John 8:58 is not a direct allusion to Exodus 3:14, which is better translated as “I will be” as per Tyndale and RV and RSV margins. Many of the above concepts have been explained in this thread and others, but Trinitarians simply whitewash over the beautiful detail and overall picture presented in the Scriptures of Truth.

Kind regards
Trevor
I Am. Not "I am he" as you falsely claim.
The Jews wanted to kill Jesus right on the spot. They knew he had just declared himself to be God.
Your denial places you with the Jews who denied Christ and wanted to kill him. You can't get around it. You'll invariably pretzel and squirm to hold your false doctrine, but you cannot get around the fact that Jesus declared himself to be God.
Say hi to your cult leaders for me.
 

Dartman

Active member
Greetings MennoSota, I am most probably a different variety to many others, but we share the fact that the Scriptures do not teach the Trinity, and recognise it was developed in the 3rd and 4th centuries by a corrupt church and based in part from Greek philosophy and a misunderstanding of the NT Scriptures and a failure to understand the OT revelation concerning God.
This statement is refreshingly close to my own understanding.
I would include the fact that the doctrine of the trinity WAS beginning, in Paul's time. But the doctrine of the trinity, or the modalistic/monarchianistic "oneness", were NOT fully developed until later, with the trinity gaining dominance, and being completely created late in the 4th century.

T said:
Yes, this is God the Father and the Angels Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5-6.
I would add Job 38:7.

T said:
.. John 8:24,28 in the immediate context translates this phrase as “I am he” connecting with the theme of whether Jesus is the Christ. John 8:58 is not a direct allusion to Exodus 3:14, which is better translated as “I will be” as per Tyndale and RV and RSV margins.
I find the Septuagint to be VERY helpful here!
It shows that the correct Greek phrase is Ho' On ... NOT "ego eimi". Yes, "ego eimi" is in ex 3:14 .... but is used in exactly the same way you and I would use "I am" ..... as a first person current state/condition. Here is the English translation of the LXX (Septuagint)

And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

The Greek is; ego eimi Ho' on ..... and then THE BEING (Ho' on) has sent me to you.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!


giphy.gif




God the Father gave God the son words to speak which can only be spoken in such a manner if Jesus is God
Jesus can say " my commandments " & it's not a lie because Jesus is God

Jesus here is saying " his commandment"
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."

Jesus here is saying " my commandments "
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

both verses can only be true if Jesus is God





if Jesus was just sent by God & not God then he was wrong to accept worship
Jesus accepted worship because Jesus is God
Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"

following & serving Jesus means following & serving Jesus because Jesus is God


if Jesus was just sent by God & not God then he was wrong for saying "follow me" "serve me"
that is not honoring God Mat 4:10

Jesus says "follow me" "serve me" because Jesus is God .

Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Joh 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, "Follow me."
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
 

Apple7

New member
How do you understand Psalm 110:1...

In context, of course...

Psalm 110


A declaration of Yahweh(Father) to my Lord(Son) : Sit at My Right Hand (Holy Spirit) , until I place Your enemies as Your footstool. Yahweh(Father) shall send The Rod of Your strength(Son) out of Zion to rule in the midst of Your enemies. Your people shall have willingness in the day of Your Power(Holy Spirit) ; in the majesties of holiness; from the womb of the dawn, to You is the dew of Your youth. Yahweh(Father) has sworn and will not repent: You are a Priest(Son) forever according to the order of Melchizedek(Holy Spirit) . The Lord(Son) at Your Right Hand (Holy Spirit) shatters kings in the day of His anger. He shall judge among the nations; He shall fill with dead bodies; He shall shatter heads over much land. He shall drink out of the torrent on the way; therefore, He shall lift up the head. (Psalm 110.1 - 7)
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again MennoSota,
I Am. Not "I am he" as you falsely claim.
Please check and compare John 8:24,28 which have the same words.
The Jews wanted to kill Jesus right on the spot. They knew he had just declared himself to be God.
Your denial places you with the Jews who denied Christ and wanted to kill him. You can't get around it. You'll invariably pretzel and squirm to hold your false doctrine, but you cannot get around the fact that Jesus declared himself to be God.
There was a build-up of tension in their controversy, and you could read all of John 7 and John 8 to appreciate this. Consider especially their claim to be the children of Abraham in John 8:39 and Jesus’ answer in John 8:40-43, and then Jesus’ assessment that they were actually children of the devil John 8:44. Now this reference to descent from Abraham also leads into the comments on Abraham in John 8:52-57. Jesus is claiming pre-eminence to Abraham in the plan and purpose of God. He is not claiming to be God, and “I am” or “I am he” are simple expressions, and has no direct link with Exodus 3:14.
Say hi to your cult leaders for me.
I belong to a lay community and each meeting is autonomous. There is a reasonable ebb and flow of people and ideas, but we agree well in the important matters. There was some years ago a reasonably strong disagreement on what First Aid kit should be purchased.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

MennoSota

New member
Greetings again MennoSota,Please check and compare John 8:24,28 which have the same words. There was a build-up of tension in their controversy, and you could read all of John 7 and John 8 to appreciate this. Consider especially their claim to be the children of Abraham in John 8:39 and Jesus’ answer in John 8:40-43, and then Jesus’ assessment that they were actually children of the devil John 8:44. Now this reference to descent from Abraham also leads into the comments on Abraham in John 8:52-57. Jesus is claiming pre-eminence to Abraham in the plan and purpose of God. He is not claiming to be God, and “I am” or “I am he” are simple expressions, and has no direct link with Exodus 3:14.I belong to a lay community and each meeting is autonomous. There is a reasonable ebb and flow of people and ideas, but we agree well in the important matters. There was some years ago a reasonably strong disagreement on what First Aid kit should be purchased.

Kind regards
Trevor
Trevor, seems you are pretzeling to excuse not believing Jesus said he is the I Am.
John 8:56,58-59
Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again MennoSota,
Trevor, seems you are pretzeling to excuse not believing Jesus said he is the I Am.
John 8:56,58-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
Abraham looked forward to the day of Jesus after he had attempted to offer up Isaac in Genesis 22:14. I have presented my view of "I am" in John 8:58 and in Exodus 3:14 which I accept as "I will be". I appreciate that you have not seriously considered this before, but this has been my conviction and understanding for many years.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Dartman,
I find the Septuagint to be VERY helpful here!
It shows that the correct Greek phrase is Ho' On ... NOT "ego eimi". Yes, "ego eimi" is in ex 3:14 .... but is used in exactly the same way you and I would use "I am" ..... as a first person current state/condition. Here is the English translation of the LXX (Septuagint)
And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
The Greek is; ego eimi Ho' on ..... and then THE BEING (Ho' on) has sent me to you.
I appreciate the rest of your comments. I agree that the LXX reading of Exodus 3:14 does not agree with John 8:58, but I suggest that the LXX rendition or translation of the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14 is poor, as I accept that the translation should be in the future tense "I will be" as per Tyndale, RV and RSV margins.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Apple7,
In context, of course...
Psalm 110 A declaration of Yahweh(Father) to my Lord(Son) : Sit at My Right Hand (Holy Spirit) , until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.
Your view is one of the best (rather worse in the sense of amusing and ridiculous) examples of whitewashing the details and only reading the Trinity. I notice that you ignored Acts 2:34-36 and there are at least another ten quotations and expositions of Psalm 110:1 in the NT, and none of these teach the Trinity.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

MennoSota

New member
Greetings again MennoSota,Abraham looked forward to the day of Jesus after he had attempted to offer up Isaac in Genesis 22:14. I have presented my view of "I am" in John 8:58 and in Exodus 3:14 which I accept as "I will be". I appreciate that you have not seriously considered this before, but this has been my conviction and understanding for many years.

Kind regards
Trevor
Why would I entertain a foolish position such as yours?
Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am."
Only a moron denies that Jesus wasn't saying He is God.
 

Dartman

Active member
Greetings again Dartman, I appreciate the rest of your comments. I agree that the LXX reading of Exodus 3:14 does not agree with John 8:58, but I suggest that the LXX rendition or translation of the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14 is poor, as I accept that the translation should be in the future tense "I will be" as per Tyndale, RV and RSV margins.

Kind regards
Trevor
Keep in mind, the LXX was translated more than 1,000 years before Masoretic manuscripts.
 
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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Dartman,
Keep in mind, the LXX was translated more than 1,000 years before Masoretic manuscripts.
I imagine there is a lot of discussion in scholarly circles as to the merit of the Hebrew manuscript(s?) in comparison to the LXX. The LXX could even had access to a Hebrew manuscript with a different reading of Exodus 3:14. But the LXX is a translation and it has been shown to be lacking in many areas, possibly depending on a particular scholar in some verses, chapters or books (Job and Jeremiah?). I prefer the Hebrew and the rendition “I will be”, not only Tyndale, RV and RSV margins, but also check Adam Clarke where he gives the literal translation as "I will be who I will be". I believe that Exodus 3:12 sets Exodus 3:14 as future together with Exodus 6:1-8 setting the association of the Yahweh Name with God’s purpose and future activity in bringing Israel out of Egypt and into the Promised Land

Kind regards
Trevor
 

chair

Well-known member
... but also check Adam Clarke where he gives the literal translation as "I will be who I will be"...

This is how a modern Hebrew speaker would understand the verse.

It is curious that the Trinity is one of the main concepts in many branches of Christianity, and though there are possible hints and allusions to this in the Christian Bible, there is nothing really clear cut. By "clear cut" I mean something along the lines of the opening statement of the ten commandments:
I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.​

On the other hand, traditions outside the written holy books do have a lot of weight in many religions, including Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
This is how a modern Hebrew speaker would understand the verse.

It is curious that the Trinity is one of the main concepts in many branches of Christianity, and though there are possible hints and allusions to this in the Christian Bible, there is nothing really clear cut. By "clear cut" I mean something along the lines of the opening statement of the ten commandments:
I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.​

On the other hand, traditions outside the written holy books do have a lot of weight in many religions, including Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.
That's true. And it's helpful imo to at least understand the authorized story of how teachings such as the Trinity, that are not at all clearly set out within Christian Scripture, nonetheless wound up being authoritative for the Christian Church.

Christ Jesus gave His own teaching authority (which is God's teaching authority) to His Apostles, and while His Apostles some of them wrote books and epistles that wound up being authorized as Christian Scripture, there are many other books of the New Testament that were not authored by Apostles, but that the Apostles nonetheless approved of as the pure truth.

The Apostles also spoke. They preached to the faithful, and they particularly instructed bishops, men who held the authentic Church pastorates, tasked with teaching and with celebrating Mass /sacraments. The bishops, we know from the Bible, were instructed not only in doctrine, but also in the further instruction of new bishops, so that the office of Bishop might always be held by men who were also instructed in doctrine and in the instruction of new bishops.

And the Trinity and other authentic Christian teachings /beliefs were revealed in their entirety by bishops throughout the centuries following the Events in Judaea in and around AD 33. It is in the Christian creeds and authorized /authoritative catechisms that we find the kind of "clear cut" instruction that parallel's "Hear O Israel," and, "I am Yahweh your God." And given the authorized story of the Church, teachings like the Trinity have the very same weight as do all the Christian scriptures, since they all are authenticated by Apostolic teaching authority.

In one critical way, all Christians who receive the New Testament as Scripture, also submit to 'Apostolic succession,' whether or not they admit it, because it is the Apostolic teaching authority handed on through the succession of bishops that authorized /approved the New Testament as we all know it today. By comparison, if we were to only include books and epistles actually authored by Apostles as Christian Scripture, we would exclude the Gospels of Mark and Luke, the book of Acts, the epistle of James, and possibly Jude and Revelation also, since the Apostolic authorship of these books are disputed.
 
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