If by pretzel you mean tie your arguments in knots .... then I would say my INTENT is to help you find salvation.
Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God
- Thread starter Dartman
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Yes, Jesus proves that God is NOT against us, God is with us.
Gen 39:2-3 And Jehovah was with Joseph, and he was a prosperous man; and he was in the house of his master the Egyptian. 3 And his master saw that Jehovah was with him, and that Jehovah made all that he did to prosper in his hand.
1 Sam 3:19 And Samuel grew, and Jehovah was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
1 Sam 18:12 And Saul was afraid of David, because Jehovah was with him, and was departed from Saul.
1 Sam 18:14 And David behaved himself wisely in all his ways; and Jehovah was with him.
2 Sam 5:10 And David waxed greater and greater; for Jehovah, the God of hosts, was with him.
2 Kings 18:1,6,7 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign....
6 For he clave to Jehovah; he departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which Jehovah commanded Moses.
7 And Jehovah was with him; whithersoever he went forth he prospered: and he rebelled against the king of Assyria, and served him not.
1 Chron 9:20 And Phinehas the son of Eleazar was ruler over them in time past, (and) Jehovah was with him.
2 Chron 1:1 And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and Jehovah his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.
2 Chron 15:8-9 And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominations out of all the land of Judah and Benjamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from the hill-country of Ephraim; and he renewed the altar of Jehovah, that was before the porch of Jehovah.
9 And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and them that sojourned with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that Jehovah his God was with him.
Luke 1:66-77 And all that heard them laid them up in their heart, saying, What then shall this child be? For the hand of the Lord was with him.
Acts 10:38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him
Yes, I already replied to that (see above). Twice, once this post is posted.
Repeating the argument (argument from repitition) I was replying to is going to make this a very short conversation between us. I have already addressed your post with a brand new post, now please address mine likewise.
Here's a couple problems with your assertion:
The only person in the Bible called Immanuel is Jesus, which emphasizes the importance of giving someone that name, and the name is mentioned, you guessed it, THREE times in scripture.
"Immanuel" means "God with us". It does not mean, "God is for us," nor does it mean "God is with us." "God with us"
Immanuel is a combination of two Hebrew words, "immanu" and "el".
Literally translated, it means, "with us God."
"El" of course, means God.
"Immanu" in scripture is hardly ever used as having the connotation of being "for" something, (only 3 times is it translated as "for", and only a few other times as 'for us,' 'for you (against)') like you propose, but being "next to" or "along side" something or "among" (a group).
Strong's h5973
- Lexical: עִם
- Transliteration: im
- Part of Speech: Preposition
- Phonetic Spelling: eem
- Definition: against.
- Origin: From amam; adverb or preposition, with (i.e. In conjunction with), in varied applications; specifically, equally with; often with prepositional prefix (and then usually unrepresented in English).
- Usage: accompanying, against, and, as (X long as), before, beside, by (reason of), for all, from (among, between), in, like, more than, of, (un-)to, with(-al).
- Translated as (count): with (531), with him (58), with you (54), and with (37), from (34), against (32), to (26), with them (19), and with him (17), with me (17), by (16), with us (16), in (15), of (13), with her (13), among (8), And with them (7), to you (6), and (5), from him (5), from you (5), to me (5), before (4), also with (3), as (3), at (3), beside (3), for (3), near (3), toward (3), - (2), among you (2), and with you (2), by you (2), for me against (2), from us (2), himself with (2), in her (2), in you (2), of you (2), on (2), to us (2), with it (2), accompanying (1), against them (1), against you (1), along (1), among them (1), among us (1), and beside (1), and both toward (1), and from (1), and like (1), and of (1), and to (1), and who with (1), and yet for all (1), as long (1), away with (1), before him (1), beside you (1), but with (1), by reason of (1), do them (1), done of you (1), for them with (1), for us (1), for you (1), for you against (1), from among (1), from between (1), from me (1), have a you (1), have you with (1), he with (1), here fast by (1), himself with him (1), I with (1), in the behalf of (1), it of you (1), minded (1), more than (1), near him (1), near you (1), nor of (1), on your terms (1), than with (1), thereof with him (1), to him (1), to them (1), together with (1), up along (1), utterly with (1), who (1), with him a few (1), yourself with him (1).
Would you care to respond to my argument, or are you just going to repeat yourself again, hoping I'll give in? (argumentum ad nauseum)
I am confident that those damned to hell will follow your teaching, Dart.
Umm, there IS only one true GOD.
But that GOD is a triune unity.
And as scripture clearly says, the Son created, as there was nothing created without Him.
John 1:3 KJV
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Romans 11:36 KJV
(36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Hebrews 2:10 KJV
(10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
And as the very first book informs us, so we are not confused later about it, the Elohim that created was a unity ----- Let US make in OUR image. Gen 1:26
Trinitarians arent even in agreement...
The East says the Spirit comes from the Father alone...
THe West claims it from both the Father and the Son...
Odd that the Son is of the Spirit but calls yet Another Father...
As for “Let Us make in Our Image”...the result was TWO not three...the second from the first...kinda like the Son begotten from the First...that is in Our Image...NOT THREE...
Oh and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters...NOT the Spirit Himself...
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musterion
Well-known member
This is the part where they don't come out and admit that the Bible is wrong where you quoted it. If they do that, they automatically can't trust it enough to quote it for their side, either, cuz those parts could be wrong too.
They don't need to be for anyone to get it right.
Scripture says multiple times that ALL THINGS were created by the Son also.
That "one" creator is a unity as the first book of the Bible informs us.
Yeppers.
Folks that don't trust parts of the Bible might as well not trust any of it if they are going to be so unsure about it.
musterion
Well-known member
Yep.
But if they admit it, the game is over. All Bible believers will ignore them but they love the attention too much.
no agreement needed? Oh ok...
Two is a unity...3 is a crowd...3rd wheels on acts of creation are impossible actually...
John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee: 2 As Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee: the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.
So, RD, is the Jesus in verse one the Jesus you deny?
And, to whom is Jesus praying?
Who is Thee, Thy, Thou .... in Christ's prayer?
Hardly ever = it IS used with that meaning.
And, your "hardly ever" is inaccurate, here is a PARTIAL list of verses using "Immanu" as I explained;
Gen 21:22 And it came to pass at that time, that Abimelech and Phichol the chief captain of his host spake unto Abraham, saying, God is with thee in all that thou doest:
Gen 26:28 And they said, We saw plainly that Jehovah was with thee.
Ex 3:12 And He said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be the token unto thee, that I have sent thee: when thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Ex 4:12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt speak.
Ex 4:15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put the words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
Num 23:21 He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them.
Deut 2:7 For Jehovah thy God hath blessed thee in all the work of thy hand; he hath known thy walking through this great wilderness: these forty years Jehovah thy God hath been with thee; thou hast lacked nothing.
Deut 31:8 And Jehovah, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.
Deut 31:23 And he gave Joshua the son of Nun a charge, and said, Be strong and of good courage; for thou shalt bring the children of Israel into the land which I sware unto them: and I will be with thee.
Josh 3:7 And Jehovah said unto Joshua, This day will I begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that, as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee.
Judg 1:22 And the house of Joseph, they also went up against Beth-el; and Jehovah was with them.
Judg 2:18 And when Jehovah raised them up judges, then Jehovah was with the judge, and saved them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented Jehovah because of their groaning by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
Judg 6:12 And the angel of Jehovah appeared unto him, and said unto him, Jehovah is with thee, thou mighty man of valor.
Judg 6:13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh, my lord, if Jehovah is with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where are all his wondrous works which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not Jehovah bring us up from Egypt? but now Jehovah hath cast us off, and delivered us into the hand of Midian.
My point is obvious. "Immanu" is absolutely FREQUENTLY used in the context of Jehovah being on someones side, and NOT being against them!
Now, we ALSO need to examine Scripture to see if Scripture EVER concludes
1) God was literally on the earth as Jesus,
2) or, as Jesus said repeatedly, if God was in heaven, and Jesus was on earth.
3) Or if, as Jesus said, to the people looking at Jesus, "no man has seen God".
Now, we just need to examine Scripture to see if Scripture EVER concludes God was literally on the earth as Jesus, or, as Jesus said repeatedly, if God was in heaven, and Jesus was on earth. Or if, as Jesus said, the people looking at Jesus, "have never seen God".
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Or, as John said;
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
If Jesus was LITERALLY God .... then THOUSANDS had seen God!!!
Your theory utterly fails on SO many levels!
Ummm, more than 1 is a unity, not just two only.
Of course not.
Everyone doesn't have to agree with you for you to get something right, now do they?
Wait wut?
More than one is a unity...like husband and wife...
More than two can also be a unity...like husband and wife and child...one family...but not one equal relationship or a marriage...marriage is with two...
2 is enough for a unity...thus “Let Us make in Our image” can be only two...
Sure but...not talking about me...but the trinitarians...the Christian church...seeing splinters in other eyes when there remains a log in their own...
I don’t kill people who don’t agree with me...but the church has...despite it being unresolved
And now others act as if they got it right when it is something east vs west has not resolved themselves...
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i don't think they do anymore :noid:
Only because they lost the majority...but cheer up...ya just gotta wait until militant church triumphs again...at the speed the counter reformation is succeeding it wont be long now...
Btw- 1826
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayetano_Ripoll
Among his offenses? not believing in the trinity...
Don't depend on the east or the west to settle it for ya.
You don't have to agree with any church organization's stance to be a Christian.
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