Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I seek to prove all things and hold fast to what is good. Our fellowship does not produce clones and there is much ebb and flow of people and ideas.

Incorrect.

You are the LAST person to be claiming that you 'seek to prove all things....as you willfully, and routinely, abruptly drop off from conversations that you, yourself, start, when the opposition evidence gets to be too much for you.

Learn to hold your ground, and show your scriptural exegesis.

No one cares about your 'feelings' about scripture.

Start dealing in facts, not emotion.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma,
I appreciate your response. I will continue to hold fast to what I have assessed to be the teaching of the Bible, even though you claim that I am not qualified to assess this properly.

But of course you will. You’re a law unto yourself.

I will not requote my summary. I was simply suggesting that there may be two perspectives on some of these things.

Kind regards
Trevor

Perspectives are irrelevant. They’re subjective, not objective.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7 and PneumaPsucheSoma,

Incorrect. You are the LAST person to be claiming that you 'seek to prove all things....as you willfully, and routinely, abruptly drop off from conversations that you, yourself, start, when the opposition evidence gets to be too much for you. Learn to hold your ground, and show your scriptural exegesis. No one cares about your 'feelings' about scripture. Start dealing in facts, not emotion.

I consider these comments as mostly typical of your method of bluff and bluster. I leave a particular conversation when you continue to repeat what I consider poor exposition and never because your evidence gets too much for me. And typical of your method was the 15 or so posts which had no substance that I was confronted with on Saturday before the thunder storm.

What about your comment about “the text is the same”. You must have been obviously aware of the two texts and yet you blatantly use the one that supports the Trinity, and try to bluff your way by the above comments when you seem to be caught out. So let’s stick with the conversation and will you now admit that there are two texts.

As far as denigrating my ecclesial environment, I suggest that you most probably do not know what it is like, the various local and regional speakers, the numerous talks available on the internet mp3 and video, the various magazines, the books available, the local fellowship of our own meeting and the others in our region. And above all you would not know my own personal circumstances and my interaction with all of this. Tonight our electrician is going to be speaking on “The Parables of the Messiah” and I have already discussed a few of the parables he is going to consider, and as well as his personal study, what resources he also used. We will be having a combined class with a neighbour ecclesia. I anticipate an encouraging evening.

Similarly I would not know your environment, but I could guess that if you do have influence then it may be the type of audience that applauds your postulations, and not have much discernment. You may even have a right hand man who keeps the audience under control, calling out anyone who disagrees and telling them when to applaud or smile or when to swallow an extreme view. This may all be a wrong assessment, but this occurs to me when some of your followers on this forum endorse one of your ridiculous posts. I doubt many serious Trinitarians really accept many of your postulations.

But of course you will. You’re a law unto yourself. Perspectives are irrelevant. They’re subjective, not objective.

I appreciate your assessment. Some of my comments above may be relevant.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

I leave a particular conversation when you continue to repeat what I consider poor exposition and never because your evidence gets too much for me.
Kind regards
Trevor

Simple challenge for you.

Define what you think The Trinity is....and then provide your VERY best 'Trinity-busting' scriptural passage, and detail to us why it supposedly falsifies The Trinity.

Or...do you consider this candid approach to be 'poor exposition'...?

:cigar:

 

[7djengo7]

But you have just pitted Col 1, against Isa 42, Acts 4 and Acts 17.

The way to HARMONIZE ALL texts is right there in Col 1. Paul is NOT writing about the creation of the universe, Paul is discussing powers, authorities, principalities and dominions that CURRENTLY (are) existed at his writing of the epistle.
Jesus created the civilization in which Paul and we live. Jesus' God created the universe.

You deny that Jesus has always existed, and you claim that God created Jesus, round about 2,000 years ago, in the womb of Mary. And yet, here, you are saying that Jesus created the Roman Principate, which was founded by Augustus Caesar in 27 B.C. That's the civilization in which Paul lived--the Roman Empire--which, as you say, "existed at his writing of the epistle". You are claiming that, after His birth, Jesus created the Roman Empire--the civilization into which He was born.

If Jesus did not exist before the Roman Empire, but, rather, came into existence 20 or 30 years after the Roman Empire had come into existence, why would you claim that Jesus created the Roman Empire?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Simple challenge for you.
Define what you think The Trinity is....and then provide your VERY best 'Trinity-busting' scriptural passage, and detail to us why it supposedly falsifies The Trinity.
Or...do you consider this candid approach to be 'poor exposition'...?
:cigar:

I want to have a rest from this and I am not interested in going over the same ground. I could list 10-20 verses that we have discussed, so if you would like to consider these privately, then you will understand my perspective on these. I am not interested in seeing a repeat of your explanation of these passages.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7,I want to have a rest from this and I am not interested in going over the same ground. I could list 10-20 verses that we have discussed, so if you would like to consider these privately, then you will understand my perspective on these. I am not interested in seeing a repeat of your explanation of these passages.

Kind regards
Trevor

You forfeit.

:loser:

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

You forfeit.
:loser:

I do not mind defaulting or “losing”. You may like to do another victory lap. What I tried to avoid was a repetition of what we have already discussed with little or no progress. To me the subject is an overall subject and each aspect contributes to the whole. If you start with what may be considered strong “Trinitarian verses” then you arrive accepting the Trinity and then have the problem of explaining strong “Unitarian verses”. Similarly if you start with strong “Unitarian verses” then you end up believing that there is One God. The Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God. There are many strong supposed “Trinitarian verses” that need to be considered and understood.

My position is that I was brought up in a Unitarian environment and in my late teens expanded in an understanding of what we call “God manifestation” and introduced briefly to the Biblical teaching of the Yahweh Name and the Biblical teaching of the word Elohim. Since then I have come to understand in more detail many verses that support the Unitarian position and a partial understanding of the supposed strong “Trinitarian verses”. So instead of elaborating on any of this I will leave it at rest now and express my appreciation for your time and effort.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I do not mind defaulting or “losing”. You may like to do another victory lap. What I tried to avoid was a repetition of what we have already discussed with little or no progress. To me the subject is an overall subject and each aspect contributes to the whole. If you start with what may be considered strong “Trinitarian verses” then you arrive accepting the Trinity and then have the problem of explaining strong “Unitarian verses”. Similarly if you start with strong “Unitarian verses” then you end up believing that there is One God. The Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God. There are many strong supposed “Trinitarian verses” that need to be considered and understood.

My position is that I was brought up in a Unitarian environment and in my late teens expanded in an understanding of what we call “God manifestation” and introduced briefly to the Biblical teaching of the Yahweh Name and the Biblical teaching of the word Elohim. Since then I have come to understand in more detail many verses that support the Unitarian position and a partial understanding of the supposed strong “Trinitarian verses”. So instead of elaborating on any of this I will leave it at rest now and express my appreciation for your time and effort.

Kind regards
Trevor

There's no need to elaborate, Trevor.

It's clear that you lack confidence in your denial of The Trinity.

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again Apple7, I do not mind defaulting or “losing”. You may like to do another victory lap. What I tried to avoid was a repetition of what we have already discussed with little or no progress. To me the subject is an overall subject and each aspect contributes to the whole. If you start with what may be considered strong “Trinitarian verses” then you arrive accepting the Trinity and then have the problem of explaining strong “Unitarian verses”. Similarly if you start with strong “Unitarian verses” then you end up believing that there is One God. The Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God. There are many strong supposed “Trinitarian verses” that need to be considered and understood.

My position is that I was brought up in a Unitarian environment and in my late teens expanded in an understanding of what we call “God manifestation” and introduced briefly to the Biblical teaching of the Yahweh Name and the Biblical teaching of the word Elohim. Since then I have come to understand in more detail many verses that support the Unitarian position and a partial understanding of the supposed strong “Trinitarian verses”. So instead of elaborating on any of this I will leave it at rest now and express my appreciation for your time and effort.

Kind regards
Trevor

You claim that Scripture has BOTH verses that support Trinitarianism, AND verses that support unitarianism. Trinitarianism and unitarianism are contradictory to one another, which means that one of them is true, and that the other is false. To say that the Bible, in one place, supports Trinitarianism, and that, in another place, the Bible supports unitarianism, is to say that the Bible supports falsehood, and that the Bible is incoherent. Only someone with a low view of Scripture--a Bibliology dishonorable to God--will claim that the Bible supports falsehood and is incoherent.

The truth is, not a single passage of Scripture supports unitarianism.

Similarly if you start with strong “Unitarian verses” then you end up believing that there is One God.

No Scripture verse is unitarian. The doctrine that there is One God is not unitarianism. The doctrine that Jesus is the Son of God is not unitarianism. Trinitarians believe, and teach, that there is One God, and that Jesus is the Son of God.

Greetings again Apple7, I do not mind defaulting or “losing”.

What (if anything) do you mean when you say that you are losing? Are you not merely hoping to make yourself seem persecuted?

And, if you think that you are right, why would you say that you are losing? Is not being right, winning? Since Trinitarians are right, we definitely are not losing, but, rather, are winning, and anti-Trinitarians are losing.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7,

You claim that Scripture has BOTH verses that support Trinitarianism, AND verses that support unitarianism. Trinitarianism and unitarianism are contradictory to one another, which means that one of them is true, and that the other is false. To say that the Bible, in one place, supports Trinitarianism, and that, in another place, the Bible supports unitarianism, is to say that the Bible supports falsehood, and that the Bible is incoherent. Only someone with a low view of Scripture--a Bibliology dishonorable to God--will claim that the Bible supports falsehood and is incoherent.
The truth is, not a single passage of Scripture supports unitarianism.

I was not suggesting that the Bible teaches both. I will not supply the list of what I consider “Unitarian verses”, but some of the supposed “Trinitarian verses” are John 1:1,8:58,10:30,20:28 and some Trinitarians suggest 1 John 5:7KJV.

No Scripture verse is unitarian. The doctrine that there is One God is not unitarianism. The doctrine that Jesus is the Son of God is not unitarianism. Trinitarians believe, and teach, that there is One God, and that Jesus is the Son of God.

Unitarians usually define that there is One God the Father, while Trinitarians sometimes say that there is one God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Unitarians and Trinitarians may state that Jesus is the Son of God but the range of what is understood by these two statements are usually different.

What (if anything) do you mean when you say that you are losing? Are you not merely hoping to make yourself seem persecuted?
And, if you think that you are right, why would you say that you are losing? Is not being right, winning? Since Trinitarians are right, we definitely are not losing, but, rather, are winning, and anti-Trinitarians are losing.

I was responding to the icon that Apple7 used, and please check the title of this icon.

You forfeit.
:loser:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Vail Lifted]

In order to call Jesus Lord one must realized that all things are attributed to him by the Father.

 

[7djengo7]

Unitarians usually define that there is One God the Father, while Trinitarians sometimes say that there is one God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Saying "there is One God the Father" is not unitarianism. Saying "there is One God the Father" does not make someone an unitarian.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7,

Saying "there is One God the Father" is not unitarianism. Saying "there is One God the Father" does not make someone an unitarian.

It certainly does not teach Trinitarianism.
Galatians 1:1-5 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead) 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Philippians 1:1-2 (KJV): 1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again 7djengo7, It certainly does not teach Trinitarianism.

What "certainly does not teach Trinitarianism"?

 

[Vail Lifted]

Not only do the Scriptures directly state that Jehovah/YHVH God is the Creator, many of those same Scriptures identify Jesus as Jehovah's servant.

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

Prayer against Enemies

A song. A psalm of Asaph.

1 God, do not keep silent. Do not be deaf, God; do not be idle.

2 See how Your enemies make an uproar; those who hate You have acted arrogantly.

3 They devise clever schemes against Your people; they conspire against Your treasured ones.

4 They say, “Come, let us wipe them out as a nation so that Israel’s name will no longer be remembered.”

5 For they have conspired with one mind; they form an alliance against You 

6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites,

7 Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre.

8 Even Assyria has joined them;

they lend support to the sons of Lot., Selah........


13 Make them like tumbleweed, my God,like straw before the wind.

14 As fire burns a forest,as a flame blazes through mountains,

15 so pursue them with Your tempest and terrify them with Your storm.

16 Cover their faces with shame so that they will seek Your name Yahweh

17 Let them be put to shame and terrified forever; let them perish in disgrace.

18 May they know that You alone — whose name is Yahweh —are the Most High over all the earth.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7,

What "certainly does not teach Trinitarianism"?

If we say that there is One God and this One God is the Father, as defined for example in 1 Corinthians 8:6, then this defines that the One Being called “the Father” is the One God. The two passages that I quoted Galatians 1:1-5, Philippians 1:1-3 define God as The Father, and this One Being in these two passages is distinct from another Being, our Lord Jesus Christ. This differs from the Trinitarian view that there is One God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

There are many passages, but here are two more that distinguish between the two Beings, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
2 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
There is One God the Father, the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

We teach our under 8 year old Sunday School students:
Who made all things? Answer: God.
What is He called? Answer: The Father.
Why is He called the Father? Answer: Because all things are of Him and from Him. He made them all.

We teach our 8-19 year old Sunday School students:
What does the Bible reveal concerning God? Answer: That there is only one God, Father of all, even of the Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the common idea that God is a Trinity is unscriptural. Proof: 1 Timothy 2:5, Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 2 Corinthians 1:3.

Part of our Junior, Intermediate and Senior Sunday School lessons include the narrative and teaching of Luke 1 and 2, and this clearly teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, and grew in wisdom as a child. Many of our Sunday School students request baptism in their later teens, and I have never encountered any that have suggested that they believe in the Trinity or have any significant difficulty with the view that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God..

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Greetings again 7djengo7, If we say that there is One God and this One God is the Father, as defined for example in 1 Corinthians 8:6, then this defines that the One Being called “the Father” is the One God. The two passages that I quoted Galatians 1:1-5, Philippians 1:1-3 define God as The Father, and this One Being in these two passages is distinct from another Being, our Lord Jesus Christ. This differs from the Trinitarian view that there is One God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

This is where your gross ignorance is on display. You presuppose that all mentioned persons are automatically individuated beings, and for humans that is the case. But for divinity, there can be one ousia (“being”, or more correctly the essential wealth of existence) and multiple hypostases (“persons”, or more correctly objective foundational underlying realites of indiviudal existence).

So all you’ve done is indicate that you don’t know the difference between an ousia and an hypostasis, and that you don’t have any idea how the Patristics utilized these terms according to Apostolic influence to determine the minutiae of the Trinity doctrine.

You aren’t even attempting to comprehend that which you come against. And you’re maliciously projecting created and human necessities upon an uncreated and divine Being.

The Father is the one true and living God as Spirit, whose eternal and uncreated Logos is the eternal and uncreated Son who was manifest in flesh with a human nature that is inseparable from His divine nature.

Unless and until you can comprehend the Trinity doctrine for what is both is AND isn’t, then you are unqualified to speak or write or type another word except in humble inquiry on this topic.

There are many passages, but here are two more that distinguish between the two Beings, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
2 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
There is One God the Father, the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

More rampant and erroneous presupposition that anyone mentioned in these passages is a distinct ousia (being) from the others. You presume they MUST be, when they simply don’t have to be and aren’t. And the Trinity doctrine doesn’t indicate anything like you’re intimating, instead accounting for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as all being the one true Divinity that is God.

This doesn’t mean the Father is the Son and Holy Spirit. It means that hypostases aren’t ousios by default regarding divinity. So it’s your human frailty and ignorance that asserts these things, projecting your own failings in understanding upon God Himself.

You wrongly insist that multiple hypostases must be multiples ousios, and that’s completely fallacious for God. The Father’s Spirit and Logos can, and are, most definitely proceded/proceding from Him into creation as the eternal and uncreated Son and the eternal and uncreated Holy Spirit who are individuated hypostases with the same ousia.

Who are you to limit God because your corrupted epistemics are so limited? Who are you to limit God to mere human limitations?

The Father is God (Divinity), and so is His Spirit and His Logos. The Greek anarthrous noun in John 1:1 clearly demonstrates this, but you have no idea what that means because you’re not a linguist or exegete. You’re just a guy trying to infuse his own frail and pathetic human reasoning into Theology Proper in conflict with the ancient authentic historical orthodox Christian faith. Your insufficient and hyper-limited subjective opinions and perceptions don’t prevail against Apostolic, Patristic, and linguistic truth just because you have no idea what the differences are between ousios and hypostases.

We teach our under 8 year old Sunday School students:

Beyond scary, and with great accountability for heinous error. You should cringe.

Who made all things? Answer: God.
What is He called? Answer: The Father.
Why is He called the Father? Answer: Because all things are of Him and from Him. He made them all.

AND... By His Logos. He spoke to create. Just because you don’t understand how God’s Logos could be the Son, it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. (And you should give up teaching children since you’re a neophyte.)

We teach our 8-19 year old Sunday School students:
What does the Bible reveal concerning God? Answer: That there is only one God, Father of all, even of the Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the common idea that God is a Trinity is unscriptural. Proof: 1 Timothy 2:5, Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 2 Corinthians 1:3.

And you’re teaching absolute antichrist heresy, for which you will be aeviternally culpable. You should be trembling, not bragging.

Part of our Junior, Intermediate and Senior Sunday School lessons include the narrative and teaching of Luke 1 and 2, and this clearly teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, and grew in wisdom as a child. Many of our Sunday School students request baptism in their later teens, and I have never encountered any that have suggested that they believe in the Trinity or have any significant difficulty with the view that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And all because you can’t comprehend how the humanity of Theanthropos could be represented in this manner with Him still being divinity. That’s because you don’t know what the Greek words mean. So this is your English fallacies developing faithless children and teens, for which you will face judgment as do all heretics.

Kind regards
Trevor

You can’t have “kind” (chrestotes) regards. And you don’t even know why. Sigh.

 

[Vail Lifted]

The Father was never born or made of a woman.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The Father was never born or made of a woman.

Who said the Father was?