Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

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Dartman

Active member
Incorrect.

Moses was Trinitarian.

He wrote about, and worshiped, a Triune Creator.
LOL ...... for some reason you left out the Scripture stating this.

Oh ...... that's right, there is none .... this is just your own words, spouting your own theory.
 

Dartman

Active member
No, it’s not conjecture at all. The passage is referring to the the adjectival oneness aspect of God, which is divinity. That’s clear since it’s referring to God. The divinity of God is the ousia, which the essence as wealth of existence. It’s the “what-ness” of God. The “who-ness” of God is designated by the hypostasis, which is the underlying individual reality.
LOL ... you try to disprove that your theory is conjecture with more conjecture!!
 

JudgeRightly

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REALLY???
Please show us even a FEW examples of "logos" singular, that do NOT mean "words" plural.

Matthew 5:37; John 1:1, 14

Now, are you going to reply to the rest of my post?

Nope. LOGOS. SINGULAR.

Even all the following pronouns that refer to the LOGOS (singular) are singular.

Words (plural) are not being discussed.

HO LOGOS (the word) is being discussed.



Jesus is described as being the Creator of the universe in Colossians:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV

So your first assertion can't be right.



The following passages are speaking of the LORD, Jehovah, yes?:

Hear my prayer, O Lord, And let my cry come to You.Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble; Incline Your ear to me; In the day that I call, answer me speedily. - Psalm 102:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:1-2&version=NKJV

and

But You, O Lord, shall endure forever, And the remembrance of Your name to all generations. - Psalm 102:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:12&version=NKJV

and

So the nations shall fear the name of the Lord, And all the kings of the earth Your glory.For the Lord shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory.He shall regard the prayer of the destitute, And shall not despise their prayer.This will be written for the generation to come, That a people yet to be created may praise the Lord.For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary; From heaven the Lord viewed the earth,To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To release those appointed to death,To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem,When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the Lord. - Psalm 102:15-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:15-22&version=NKJV

and

Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed.But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.” - Psalm 102:25-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:25-28&version=NKJV

All about Jehovah, yes?

This is what the author of Hebrews says, speaking of the Son, Jesus:

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”​
And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”​
- Hebrews 1:8-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:8-12&version=NKJV

Verses 10-12, you'll note, are a quote from Psalm 102, a prayer to Jehovah by name that could not be talking to or about any other being. The author of Hebrews even addresses the son as the "Lord." Such a title, especially when quoting a psalm such as 102, is referring to "YHWH" or "Jehovah." The Book of Hebrews thus plainly identifies Jesus as Jehovah.

So that's your second assertion blown out of the water.



And?

You've never heard of metaphors?
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
God Or Jesus?
[2Co 5:18–21
[18] Now all things [are] of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
[19] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
[20] Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore [you] on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
[21] For He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
[Act 2:22
[22] "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
[Jhn 14:10
[10] "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
[Jhn 6:29
[29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
[Phl 2:12–13
[12] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
[13] for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.
[Jhn 4:48
[48] Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you [people] see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe."

xxx Truth is truth. The devil is constantly trying to cause confusion and deception. Jesus didnt do any miracles, God done the miracles throught Jesus. Because Jesus submitted Himself to the will of God. Just like we are to submit to the will of God. The devil just doesnt want you to speak the truth.

[Mat 12:39
[39] But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
[2Th 2:4–5, 7–12
[4] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[5] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? ...
[7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains [will do so] until He is taken out of the way.
[8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
[9] The coming of the [lawless one] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
[10] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
[12] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[2Co 11:13–15
[13] For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
[14] And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
[15] Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Please provide a post where I made this statement exactly as you quoted.

This is Unitarian Christology.

What you’ve done is establish that you have no intention of considering anything except your false position, so there’s really no need for anyone to continue in discourse with you.

I’ve never been attempting to convince you; only to get you to hopefully understand that you constantly violate the application of Greek grammar and terms every time you attempt to address this topic.

I’m fine with you remaining a Unitarian antichrist heretic. It’s of no consequence to me.
 

Apple7

New member
Please produce any text in Ezekiel that uses the phrase : "The second person of the trinity", or "the third person of the trinity", or "God the Son", or "God the holy spirit"
AND let's expand your context to the entire Bible .... these phrases don't exist.

You and Trev hold to the same theory that an 'angel' spoke to Ezekiel.

Looks like you can't help Trevor out....too bad...



On the OTHER hand, there are MANY texts that explain in DETAIL God's use of angels to reveal His words.

But NOT in Ezekiel.

:cigar:
 

Apple7

New member
Greetings again Apple7, They came to Ezekiel to hear the Word of Yahweh. The 2nd Person of the Trinity was not standing next to Ezekiel nor was God the Son or Jesus speaking to the people when the people came to Ezekiel.

Who do you think wrote the Book of Ezekiel?





I differ in my understanding of Yahweh and Elohim and we have discussed this previously.

Then defend your stance.




You did not directly answer my question: Do you believe that the Scribe who studied Moses’ writings, believed in the Trinity after this encounter?

Kind regards
Trevor


Jesus said that he did.
 

Apple7

New member
LOL ...... for some reason you left out the Scripture stating this.

Oh ...... that's right, there is none .... this is just your own words, spouting your own theory.


The First Person of The Trinity commanded Moses to cut two tablets of stone (Deut 10.1; Exo 34.1 – 4), as spoken to Moses by The Second Person of The Trinity (Deut 4.12 – 13; Deut 5.22; Deut 9.10; Deut 10.4), and written by the Third Person of The Trinity (Exo 31.18; Deut 9.10).


:cigar:
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Apple7,
Who do you think wrote the Book of Ezekiel?
Ezekiel is one of the writing prophets. Under inspiration by means of the Holy Spirit, Ezekiel wrote some of the things that he spoke. Whether he used a scribe like Baruch with Jeremiah, or wrote the Word of God directly himself on a scroll is not recorded.
Jeremiah 36:1–4 (KJV): 1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day. 3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin. 4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.
Then defend your stance.
We have discussed this and I was surprised that you persistently tried to impose the Trinity on the OT teaching concerning Yahweh and Elohim.
Jesus said that he did.
Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
I find no evidence that the Scribe recognised Jesus as the One God in this discussion, and even the term “there is none other but he” does not seem to include Jesus but he is speaking about the One God, God the Father in heaven.

Deuteronomy 4:35,39 (KJV): 35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
I also suggest that the Scribe could have been alluding to or quoting the above.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Dartman

Active member
Matthew 5:37; John 1:1, 14

Now, are you going to reply to the rest of my post?
Not until we fully discuss your failure.

Matt 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Technically, Jesus says four words in this commandment.
And, I am pretty sure even you would agree this text is NOT commanding us to use one word communication EVERY TIME we speak.
The commandment begins in verse 33, and records Christ's prohibition against ANY swearing .... and he gives several examples of what NOT to do, and he then explains what we ARE supposed to do, Let our Yes mean Yes, and our No mean No..... there is to be the same level of commitment to truth in ANY communication (logos) we speak.
So, no this one doesn't work for you.

Your attempt to use John 1 is what we call "begging the question", let me know if you can't find that one on google.

So, you need to admit the OBVIOUS truth ...... there isn't a single example of logos singular being limited to one word...... and there are MANY that prove logos singular is used for words, sayings, etc.
 

Dartman

Active member
The First Person of The Trinity commanded Moses to cut two tablets of stone (Deut 10.1; Exo 34.1 – 4), as spoken to Moses by The Second Person of The Trinity (Deut 4.12 – 13; Deut 5.22; Deut 9.10; Deut 10.4), and written by the Third Person of The Trinity (Exo 31.18; Deut 9.10).
LOL .... not one of those texts uses the language you are trying to force upon them.

You fail.
 

Dartman

Active member
You and Trev hold to the same theory that an 'angel' spoke to Ezekiel.
It isn't clear it was an angel in this text;

Eze 1:3 the word of Jehovah came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of Jehovah was there upon him.


Nor is that possibility ruled out.

Exegesis requires harmony within the context, and with ALL Scripture,

Your efforts are transparent, dishonest and pointless.
 

Apple7

New member
It isn't clear it was an angel in this text;

Eze 1:3 the word (SON) of Jehovah came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand (HOLY SPIRIT) of Jehovah was there upon him.


Nor is that possibility ruled out.

Exegesis requires harmony within the context, and with ALL Scripture,

Your efforts are transparent, dishonest and pointless.

Incorrect.

The passage you quoted is crystal clear to any serious student of scripture.

No angel makes an appearance in Ezekiel.

The only appearance of an angel is in your delusional mind...
 

Apple7

New member
Greetings again Apple7, Ezekiel is one of the writing prophets. Under inspiration by means of the Holy Spirit, Ezekiel wrote some of the things that he spoke. Whether he used a scribe like Baruch with Jeremiah, or wrote the Word of God directly himself on a scroll is not recorded.
Jeremiah 36:1–4 (KJV): 1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day. 3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin. 4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.

So...according to you, The Holy Spirit now speaks.



We have discussed this and I was surprised that you persistently tried to impose the Trinity on the OT teaching concerning Yahweh and Elohim.

You offer no scriptural alternative.



Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
I find no evidence that the Scribe recognised Jesus as the One God in this discussion, and even the term “there is none other but he” does not seem to include Jesus but he is speaking about the One God, God the Father in heaven.

Deuteronomy 4:35,39 (KJV): 35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
I also suggest that the Scribe could have been alluding to or quoting the above.

Kind regards
Trevor

Why do you insist on ignoring the original languages?
 

Lon

Well-known member
Not only do the Scriptures directly state that Jehovah/YHVH God is the Creator, many of those same Scriptures identify Jesus as Jehovah's servant.
Hmmm, let's see:

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 1:15-20? No, we cannot pit scripture against scripture and MUST reconcile ALL scriptures therefore I am necessarily (by scripture's demands) triune (Trinitarian). To me, it is the ONLY viable scriptural position, though some Unitarians I've chatted with seem to be closet-Triune whether they know it or not. Jesus is God, CLEARLY given by the scriptures. It's foolish to not admit to what scripture presents lest you find yourself fighting against God very God. That CERTAINLY is no place I want to see you or any other spinning their wheels on TOL. It helps nothing. The only thing good that can come from wrestling with the scriptures, is not arguing with other men, but actually knowing the God as portrayed by the scriptures because he/she will surely be wrestling with God, not man.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Apple7,
So...according to you, The Holy Spirit now speaks.
You seem to be the only one that is confused as to whether “The Word of God” is the 2nd Person of the Trinity in Ezekiel or the 3rd Person of the Trinity when The Word of God came to John in the wilderness. Ezekiel spoke God’s words and he was even dumb in between his various pronouncements from God, clearly demonstrating that what he said was not his own words but the Word of God. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with:
2 Peter 1:19–21 (KJV): 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (or origination). 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
You offer no scriptural alternative.
Perhaps you have a short memory, and you have already claimed victory, and done your victory lap with an enlarged version of your avatar on your flag as you run around the stadium to the accompaniment of “I am the very model of a modern ..”.
Perhaps you want to make another victory lap while some favourite victory song is played.

A brief summary of some of the things that I have presented, and although you have responded to most of this, all of your arrows have missed the mark.
1. Jesus was conceived and born with God the Father as his father and Mary as his mother, and as such he was born the Son of God Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14.
2. As a child he grew in wisdom and in favour with God and man Luke 2:40, 52.
3. Exodus 3:14-15 should be translated in the future tense “I will be” and “He will be” as per Tyndale and RV and RSV margins and some modern scholars, and verified by Exodus 3:12 and speaks of God’s purpose to deliver Israel out of Egypt and bring them into the land Exodus 6:1-8.
4. There is thus no direct link between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. John 8:58 is better understood as part of a theme in John’s Gospel concerning whether Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and this is clearly seen in John 8:24,28.
5. Yahweh is God the Father and the distinction between Yahweh, God the Father and David’s Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God is clearly revealed in Psalm 110:1, and verified by the numerous NT expositions of this verse.
6. John 10:30-36 introduces us to the fact that Elohim is used for the judges and Jesus uses this fact to claim that he is the Son of God.
7. Genesis 1:26-27 is speaking of God and the Angels and this is confirmed by David’s summary of this in Psalm 8:4-6. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.
The above should be sufficient to remind you of some of our discussion.
Why do you insist on ignoring the original languages?
Another one of your bent or crooked arrows.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Apple7

New member
Greetings again Apple7, You seem to be the only one that is confused as to whether “The Word of God” is the 2nd Person of the Trinity in Ezekiel or the 3rd Person of the Trinity when The Word of God came to John in the wilderness.

Kind regards
Trevor

Incorrect.

There is absolutely zero confusion.

Ezekiel writes that both the 'Word of God'(SON) came to him speaking and talking, and that 'The Hand of God' (HOLY SPIRIT) also came upon him.

'The Word of God' does the speaking to Ezekiel, hundreds of times just in this one book (NOT an angel as you ignorantly claim)...while the 'Hand of God' does NO speaking.

'The Word of God' that came to John does NOT speak, and is shown to be a different Greek word than Logos, used for The Son....thus, The Holy Spirit came upon John, just as already declared to you pages ago...
 
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