It's NOT the Attainment it's the Atonement

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Dialogos said:
Robert, I am not a Catholic, nor do I support or endorse Catholic theology or doctrine. In fact, I think the Catholic practice of the mass is flat wrong.

That said, you are so far off base here you aren't even in the ballpark.

You either don't know what Catholics believe, which makes you ignorant, or you intentionally misrepresent Catholicism, which makes you a liar.

Either way.

Stop it!


You do this routinely with Calvinism and now you are pushing down your straw men of Catholicism.

Until you start making accurate representations of other's positions, no one who values credibility should listen to you.
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You may not be a Catholic or a Calvinist, but you are sympathetic to their cause.

I suspect that you don't know what you believe, so you just defend anything that is religious.
 
Dialogos

Dialogos

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You may not be a Catholic or a Calvinist, but you are sympathetic to their cause.
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No, its just that bearing false witness against anyone is wrong, doesn't matter who it is.

Robert said:
I suspect that you don't know what you believe, so you just defend anything that is religious.
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I suspect that very few people care what you suspect.
 
Cruciform

Cruciform

New member
Robert Pate said:
No, it means that salvation has been provided for all, so that now..."Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
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So, then, the fact that Christ ACCOMPLISHED redemption is in fact NOT enough as you wrongly claimed. Rather, something else must take place in order for that finished redemption to APPLY to specific individuals, namely, they must be made "new creatures" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; 2 Pet. 1:4) through faith in Christ through Baptism (Ac. 2:38; 22:16; cf. Jn. 3:5; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:21). Thus, you here merely prove my earlier statements in prior posts above.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Cruciform said:
So, then, the fact that Christ ACCOMPLISHED redemption is in fact NOT enough as you wrongly claimed. Rather, something else must take place in order for that finished redemption to APPLY to specific individuals, namely, they must be made "new creatures" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; 2 Pet. 1:4) through faith in Christ through Baptism (Ac. 2:38; 22:16; cf. Jn. 3:5; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:21). Thus, you here merely prove my earlier statements in prior posts above.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
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Reconciliation has been provided for all by the doing and the dying of Jesus. You had nothing to do with this.

Because you have a religious mind, you have to try and figure out how you can participate in this reconciliation.

This reconciliation is available to all who do nothing more than believe in Jesus. It is a gift from God, Ephesians 2:8. You don't have to work for it.
 
Cruciform

Cruciform

New member
Robert Pate said:
Reconciliation has been provided for all by the doing and the dying of Jesus. You had nothing to do with this.
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"Provided" (ACCOMPLISHED) yes, but not APPLIED to every individual---unless it's your claim that everyone on earth is saved. Do you, then, hold to universalism?
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Cruciform said:
"Provided" (ACCOMPLISHED) yes, but not APPLIED to every individual---unless it's your claim that everyone on earth is saved. Do you, then, hold to universalism?
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You accomplished nothing.

Jesus has reconciled the world unto God so that... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Salvation is something that is received as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
Robert Pate said:
You accomplished nothing.

Jesus has reconciled the world unto God so that... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Salvation is something that is received as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.
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Is that your answer to the question? You do believe in universalism? Or you agree with us? I'm still not clear...
 
Cruciform

Cruciform

New member
Robert Pate said:
Jesus has reconciled the world unto God so that... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Salvation is something that is received as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.
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Amen. However, you failed to answer the question in Post #48 above.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You accomplished nothing.

Jesus has reconciled the world unto God so that... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Salvation is something that is received as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.
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This is Salvation by works, by what a person does, and not by what Christ did !
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
All that Jesus did to save us is a gift from God.

If you don't receive it, it is not yours.
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Thats promoting salvation by works, by what a person does !

Those Christ died for are saved and reconciled to God while they are yet enemies and unbelievers, rejecting God Rom 5:10, thats why its a Gift !
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

Well-known member
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Hall of Fame
beloved57 said:
Thats promoting salvation by works, by what a person does !

Those Christ died for are saved and reconciled to God while they are yet enemies and unbelievers, rejecting God Rom 5:10, thats why its a Gift !
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Guess you haven't received the gift yet.
 
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popsthebuilder

New member
Robert Pate said:
Catholics and others holiness religions see little to no value in the death of Christ. Many believe that the crucifixon of Christ happened to inspire them to be better Christians. They do not believe that Jesus really did atone for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Catholics believe that Jesus died on the cross so that the Holy Spirit would become available to them and through the indwelling Spirit they would be able to become like Christ. The whole of Catholicism is to become like Christ. Doesn't seem to be working very well. I think that the more you try to become like Christ the more you will sin. See Romans 7:7-12. This is the problem. The law does not conquer sin, it causes sin.

The atonement of Christ frees us from the law. If Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, then I don't need to worry about it, nor do I need to try to overcome it. Jesus overcame it for me. This means that I can rest in what he has accomplished for me, Hebrews 4:10.

The Christian is called to live his life before God as a sinner, a saved sinner. This is why Paul wrote, "For the good that I would do, I don't do it, instead I do the evil" Romans 7:19. Paul struggled with sin just like we do. He even refered to himself as..."The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Was Paul really the chief of sinners? No, but he just wanted us to know that he was indwelt with sin, Romans 7:17.

The problem is within. The help is without. trying to overcome your sin problem through the works of the law will result in more sin. Ask any Catholic. Remember all of those fallen TV Pentecostal preachers? None of them had or believed the Gospel. They were all trying to overcome their sin problems by the works of the law, which is really the works of the flesh.

Here is the answer to the sin problem, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" Romans 8:3. If sin has been abolished or condemned, why should we be concerned about it? God is not concerned about it. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been destroyed, Colossians 2:15. We who believe are now perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Instead of trying to be like Christ, which is impossible. Try working on being "In Christ". To be in Christ means that you are trusting in his righteousness and in his atonement for your sins. To be "In Christ" means that you have renounced your righteousness and your religion, which is worthless and you are totally and completely trusting in Christ alone for your salvation.
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He condemned sin. He didn't say don't worry about it. He paid for our sins and showed us how to live in a manner that is pleasing to GOD. He did not sacrifice himself that we might go on vainly sinning. If any think they don't need to try with all they are by the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of the Christ, then they are simply believing in a name and not truly believing the Word. Nowhere in scripture does it say to go on sinning, but it says whoever sins knows not of GOD, nor will God know them. Christ made salvation available for any and all who actually believe, that means whole heartedly, with all of your being. To believe, really believe, one would act, in all they do, as if they had full Faith in the Word of GOD. Works are a product of Faith and go along with it. Faith without works is not actual Faith, but vanity as if God wants you to sin, or simply say the lords name hollowly, with no conviction.

Peace
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
popsthebuilder said:
He condemned sin. He didn't say don't worry about it. He paid for our sins and showed us how to live in a manner that is pleasing to GOD. He did not sacrifice himself that we might go on vainly sinning. If any think they don't need to try with all they are by the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of the Christ, then they are simply believing in a name and not truly believing the Word. Nowhere in scripture does it say to go on sinning, but it says whoever sins knows not of GOD, nor will God know them. Christ made salvation available for any and all who actually believe, that means whole heartedly, with all of your being. To believe, really believe, one would act, in all they do, as if they had full Faith in the Word of GOD. Works are a product of Faith and go along with it. Faith without works is not actual Faith, but vanity as if God wants you to sin, or simply say the lords name hollowly, with no conviction.

Peace
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There are varying degrees of Christian maturity within the church. The church at Corinth was a troublesome church for Paul. The reason that it was troublesome was because of all of the new converts to Christianity.

We should try to be patient with those who have not reached full maturity in Christ and continue in sin. 1 Corinthians 3:1, 2, 3.
 
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