It pleased YHWH to bruise him, to make his soul an offering for sin

beameup

beameup

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All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on HIM the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for HE shall bear their iniquities. - Isaiah 53:6-11

He was CUT OFF [גָּזַר gâzar גָּזַר gâzar] from the land of the living.
 
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popsthebuilder

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beameup said:
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on HIM the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for HE shall bear their iniquities. - Isaiah 53:6-11

He was CUT OFF [גָּזַר gâzar גָּזַר gâzar] from the land of the living.
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By his own submission to the Spirit that utterly and wholly dwelled in Him, for the sake of all.

peace
 
beameup

beameup

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Elia said:
Bs"d

The servant is only Israel and nobody else. For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com
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So, you are claiming the following:
1) It pleased God to punish Israel
2) Israel made its soul an offering for sin
3) Israel shall see the travail of its soul
4) Israel shall justify many
5) Israel shall bear their iniquities
6) Israel has poured out its soul unto death
7) Israel has born the sins of many

Who's "sin" did Israel make an offering for???
 
Elia

Elia

Well-known member
beameup said:
So, you are claiming the following:
1) It pleased God to punish Israel
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Bs"d

Yes.

So you claim it pleased God to punish Himself?

2) Israel made its soul an offering for sin
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Yes, Israel did.

3) Israel shall see the travail of its soul
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Yes, Israel will see that.

Do you claim that God will see the travail of His soul?

4) Israel shall justify many
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Yes, Israel will justify Israel, which are many.

5) Israel shall bear their iniquities
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Israel bears the iniquities of Israel.

Everybody bears his own sins. And in some cases the sins of their forefathers.

6) Israel has poured out its soul unto death
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Yes, when Israel was in exile, it was cut of from the land of the living (that is Israel), and as a nation Israel was dead.

7) Israel has born the sins of many
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Israel bears the sins of Israel, and Israel is made up of many people.

Who's "sin" did Israel make an offering for???
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For the sins of Israel.
 
beameup

beameup

New member
Elia said:
Bs"d

Yes.

So you claim it pleased God to punish Himself?



Yes, Israel did.



Yes, Israel will see that.

Do you claim that God will see the travail of His soul?



Yes, Israel will justify Israel, which are many.



Israel bears the iniquities of Israel.

Everybody bears his own sins. And in some cases the sins of their forefathers.



Yes, when Israel was in exile, it was cut of from the land of the living (that is Israel), and as a nation Israel was dead.



Israel bears the sins of Israel, and Israel is made up of many people.



For the sins of Israel.
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Since you are your own savior, then you don't need G_d.
Do you grade yourself on the "curve" to determine your destiny,
or do you grade your mitzvahs on a "pass-fail" basis?
 
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Elia

Elia

Well-known member
beameup said:
Since you are your own savior, then you don't need G_d.
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Bs"d

God is my Savior.

But that doesn't change the fact that I get punished for my sins, like everybody else.

And through the punishment the sin is erased.
 
beameup

beameup

New member
Elia said:
Bs"d

God is my Savior.

But that doesn't change the fact that I get punished for my sins, like everybody else.

And through the punishment the sin is erased.
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So, why was an innocent victim (lamb) offered up as a substitute and sacrifice for sin?
Face it, you cannot observe Moses because there is no Temple or Levites.
 
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Elia

Elia

Well-known member
Bs"d

There are plenty of Levites and Priests. But no, all the laws pertaining to the Temple we cannot do now.

But soon we can, when the Temple is rebuild again.
 
Elia

Elia

Well-known member
Bs"d

Isaiah is not speaking about a substitute, and not about an innocent victim.
 
beameup

beameup

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Elia said:
Bs"d

Isaiah is not speaking about a substitute, and not about an innocent victim.
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The Law of Moses is based on a substitutional sacrifice for individual sins.
The principle goes all the way back to Job and Cain and Abel.
So, how do you "atone" for sin since there is no Temple.

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sin.
 
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popsthebuilder

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Elia said:
Bs"d

God is my Savior.

But that doesn't change the fact that I get punished for my sins, like everybody else.

And through the punishment the sin is erased.
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Chastisement/ punishment is for edification, bringing about sorrowful sincere repentance or turning from sin.

Sin is forgiven and too we are to be merciful.
 
Elia

Elia

Well-known member
beameup said:
The Torah has not been "erased" from the Tanakh. Moses still applies even though you have no Temple. That is why for about 2,000 years, you have had no blood sacrifice to atone for sin.
No sacrifice = your sin remains
No Catholic style "hocus pocus" can change the facts.
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Bs"d

The animal sacrifices are a substitute. We have a substitute for the substitute: "O Israel, return unto Y-H-W-H thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. 2 Take with you words, and return unto Y-H-W-H: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and accept that which is good: so will we render as bullocks the offering of our lips."
Hosea 14:1
 
beameup

beameup

New member
Elia said:
Bs"d

The animal sacrifices are a substitute. We have a substitute for the substitute: "O Israel, return unto Y-H-W-H thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. 2 Take with you words, and return unto Y-H-W-H: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and accept that which is good: so will we render as bullocks the offering of our lips."
Hosea 14:1
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Where in the Tanakh does it say that Moses has been set-aside?
What will the coming Temple use as a basis for the rituals and ceremonies conducted therein?
Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sin... your sin remains upon you.
 
beameup

beameup

New member
Elia said:
Bs"d
Where is that written?
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The instructions of YHWH are in Leviticus. Perhaps you should read them. Your sin remains upon you.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. - Leviticus 17:11 etc,etc,etc.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
beameup said:
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on HIM the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for HE shall bear their iniquities. - Isaiah 53:6-11

He was CUT OFF [גָּזַר gâzar גָּזַר gâzar] from the land of the living.
Click to expand...

Who is the Lord?

Who did the Lord lay the iniquity of us all upon?

Who is the Lord?

Who did the Lord bruise?

Who is the Lord?

Who did the Lord put to grief?

Who is the Lord?

Who soul did the Lord make be an offering for sin?
 
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