It pleased YHWH to bruise him, to make his soul an offering for sin

beameup

beameup

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Elia said:
Bs"d

It proves that there is atonement without the shedding of blood.

Therefore; there is no such a thing as "without blood there is no atonement".

And of course, this too speaks about unintentional sins. For intentional sins there is no sacrifice, only repentance.

For more see here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/sacrifices
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There is no "national atonement" Yom Kippur for Israel... zero, zip, nada
No Temple = No Sacrifice = Sin Remains
Your beloved rabbis are misleading you
Read Leviticus, it still applies
 
jamie

jamie

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Elia said:
No, I don't. Judaism started when God gave the Torah on mount Sinai 3300 years ago.
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Didn't the Sinaitic agreement provide for a sancturary to protect God's covenant?

Didn't that agreement provide for a priesthood?

Where is the sanctuary?

Where is the priesthood?

Where is the covenant?

What verse says it's okay to modify the Law of Moses.

Paul was a Jew and he said, "Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it." (Galatians 3:15)

Judaism is no more valid than Islam. Neither are scripture based.
 
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popsthebuilder

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jamie said:
No I don't. Why would you think such a thing?

Scripture plainly says Jesus was conceived by the Father's Spirit.

All you have to do is be guided by scripture instead of making up things.

:doh:
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I apologize.

I thought you said the Holy Spirit wasn't a thing until the physical death of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ of GOD.

If that isn't what you said, then could you rephrase it?

You said;

"God's Spirit was not available to anyone while Jesus was human."

I assumed you meant that the Holy Spirit/ the Spirit of GOD didn't interact and affect man before the physical death of Jesus the Christ.

Again; I apologize if that wasn't your meaning. I shouldn't assume things, but either wait or ask so that things will be understood.
 
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popsthebuilder

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Elia said:
Bs"d

It doesn't say in Isaiah 53 that God was pleased with Israel all of the time.

Did you read that the text of Isaiah 42 and context literally spells out that the servant is Israel?


“Behold, my servant shall act wisely;” You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?



“his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind”

When did that happen to JC?



“a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness” When exactly was JC sick?



“Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Wasn’t JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?



A mistranslation: “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.”

The word “yet” seems to imply that the considerations of the Jewish people that he was stricken by God, was wrong.

However, that word “yet” is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew. It is inserted by translators who want to prove their point.



“But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;”

The same holds true for the word “But”, which also seems to imply that the Jews were wrong. In both places in the Hebrew only the word “and” is written, so the correct translation is as follows: “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, and we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. And he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;”



“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;”

He didn’t open his mouth? When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22

When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: “Why did I forsake myself?”

“At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34

He didn’t open his mouth?



“for the transgression of my people the plague was upon them”

This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. “The plague was upon THEM”. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.

The Hebrew word translated as “upon them” is “lamo” The same word “lamo” is also used in Genesis 9:26-27: “God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be THEIR servant."

Deut 32:32; “and THEIR clusters are bitter.” Literally: “For them are bitter clusters.”

Deut 32: 35 “and their destiny will overtake THEM”

Deut 33:2; “"The LORD came from Sinai and dawned OVER THEM from Seir;”



The word “lamo” which means “for them” or “upon them” is also used in Isaiah 16:4, 26:14+16, 35:8, Psalm 119:165.

Some translations, realizing they cannot get around the plural, translate it as: “for the transgression of my people, TO WHOM the stroke was due?” Like this it is translated by the NASB, AMP, ASV, and in the footnote of the NIV.

But this is a very forced translation. There is nothing “due” in verse 8.





“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence”

Done no violence? “So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15



“And with the rich in his death” The Hebrew word for “death” is written in the plural, again indicating it does not speak about a singular person. Unless of course Christianity wants to say that their god died several times. If you say this talks about a whole people, then there is no problem.

But, if you want to say this speaks about the messiah, then you are in trouble.



And of course, this word is mistranslated in about every Christian translation to be found.



“Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;” So it was the will of God to crush Himself???



“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days” God makes himself an offering for sin? JC sees his offspring? How is he going to do that? He was never married.



“He shall prolong his days”

God is going to prolong his days when he makes himself an offering for sin? And if he doesn’t, God is not going to prolong his days?

But didn’t God die when he was 30?



“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring”

God needs to make himself an offering in order to be able to forgive his creatures? God first has to be murdered by his creatures, and only then he can forgive them?



“Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” God is going to give Himself a portion with the strong? When exactly did JC get that?
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Very good points.
 
jamie

jamie

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popsthebuilder said:
If that isn't what you said, then could you rephrase it?
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It was a paste from the NKJV.

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:38-39 NKJV)

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.(KJV)

"let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’ (Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (NET)

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (NASB)

"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." (NIV)
 
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popsthebuilder

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jamie said:
It was a paste from the NKJV.

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.*But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:39-40 NKJV)

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.*But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.(KJV)

"let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’*(Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (NET)

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (NASB)

"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.*By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." (NIV)
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I wasn't denying scripture....at all, nor did I think you were the author.

You may have missed my point. I'm pretty sure I actually quoted what I was referencing.
 
jamie

jamie

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popsthebuilder said:
I wasn't denying scripture....at all, nor did I think you were the author.

You may have missed my point. I'm pretty sure I actually quoted what I was referencing.
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In post 34 I said, "God's Spirit was not available to anyone while Jesus was human."

Only John and Jesus had God's Spirit until Jesus was glorified.
 
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popsthebuilder

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jamie said:
In post 34 I said, "God's Spirit was not available to anyone while Jesus was human."

Only John and Jesus had God's Spirit until Jesus was glorified.
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How do you see the verse you provided as proving that none had the Spirit of GOD affect them prior to the physical death of Christ?
 
beameup

beameup

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jamie said:
In post 34 I said, "God's Spirit was not available to anyone while Jesus was human."

Only John and Jesus had God's Spirit until Jesus was glorified.
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And Elijah had... what?
Many have had the power of the Ruach Elohim prior to the Cross.
Father
Son
Holy Spirit
and these 3 are God
 
jamie

jamie

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popsthebuilder said:
How do you see the verse you provided as proving that none had the Spirit of GOD affect them prior to the physical death of Christ?
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"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:9-10)

As a human Christ was not Spirit. He was holy, but not Spirit.

Before he became human he was Spirit.
 
Elia

Elia

Well-known member
beameup said:
And Elijah had... what?
Many have had the power of the Ruach Elohim prior to the Cross.
Father
Son
Holy Spirit
and these 3 are God
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Bs"d

God is ONE, and not three:


שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.​

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.
 
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popsthebuilder

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jamie said:
"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:9-10)

As a human Christ was not Spirit. He was holy, but not Spirit.

Before he became human he was Spirit.
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Still waiting on that explanation.
 
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popsthebuilder

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jamie said:
Yes, there is one Spirit. The one Spirit is in Christ and us.

We are all part of the one Spirit.

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9)
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Yet we can choose to deny that Spirit in favor of greed and want of attainment of this life or the hereafter.

We can be selfless or selfish... Not both.
 
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