Ah. OK.
That does not change the facts of Hebrew grammar. Even if I had the Holy Spirit inside me. Even if I thought that the Holy Spirit is a female person. I could not prove it from the Hebrew grammar of those texts. Nor can you.
Is the Holy Spirit Female?
- Thread starter WatchmanOnTheWall
- Start date
Ah. OK.
That does not change the facts of Hebrew grammar. Even if I had the Holy Spirit inside me. Even if I thought that the Holy Spirit is a female person. I could not prove it from the Hebrew grammar of those texts. Nor can you.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
1. Having the Holy Spirit tells the Christian that it is a person and not inanimate object as you believe.
2. The Hebrew Grammar tells Everyone the Holy Spirit is Female.
I have repeatedly stated that I don't care one way or the other on the theological issue. It is a Christian issue.
It tells one misguided fellow that.
It apparently is impossible for you to face the facts on this one.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
That is why you don't know that the Holy Spirit is a person and not an inanimate object.
The Yod which translates to 'ni' means 'She' You have admitted this means She but strangely carry on contradicting yourself and scripture:
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
Well, at least we are back to the topic, and not evading it.
Watchman, I will give this one last try. Let's take an example that is not loaded with theological importance. Say in French.
In French all objects have gender: "Every French noun has a grammatical gender, either masculine or feminine. "
This means that a table, chair and rock in French all have a gender. None of those items are really male or female- it is the way French is.
I think you will agree that when translating into English, one would usually not indicate the gender. However, in a linear translation, where you want to bring out the details of the language- you might want to indicate the gender. In a dictionary you might want to do that as well.
In Hebrew, all objects have gender. "Every noun in Hebrew has a gender, either masculine or feminine (or both); for example, סֵפֶר /ˈsefer/ (book) is masculine, while דֶּלֶת /ˈdelet/ (door) is feminine"
I think you will agree that when translating into English, one would usually not indicate the gender. However, in a linear translation, where you want to bring out the details of the language- you might want to indicate the gender. In a dictionary you might want to do that as well.
Got that so far? Good.
Now, getting back to the Bible. Let's take an example. One that doesn't have theological significance. Exodus 25 describes some of the items in the Tabernacle. I think you will agree that the Ark is not a person, and that it is not a male or female.
Let's take a look at your favorite translation.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo25.pdf
verse 10. if we look at the translation, on the right side of that page, it says
"And they shall make an
ark [of] shittim wood: two
cubits and a half [shall be]
the length thereof, and a
cubit and a half the breadth
thereof, and a cubit and a
half the height thereof."
No gender here. "Thereof" is used- completely neutral.
But the linear translation says this:
"and they make coffer of woods of acacias two cubits a half length of him and cubit and half width of him and cubit and half rise of him"
Him? Him?! Is the ark male? Is the ark a person?
According to your understanding of Hebrew grammar, the answer is "yes, the ark is a male person".
That is wrong. And that is why the normal translation doesn't include "him". The linear translation is very awkward, and it is meant to call your attention to the Hebrew structure of the verses- it doesn't even read properly in English. "woods of acacias"?
Now- don't jump on me for not having the Holy Spirit in me. And don't jump on me because you think I'm attacking your beliefs. I'm not- I really don't care what you believe about the Holy Spirit. Just pay attention to the facts.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
It is you who is evading the issue
liar
What ever language you try to side step the issue with, it still say's She and not He. Got that,
good!
You can't even see your own duplicitousness in how you think trying to use another language would make anyone think that would change the argument. You are so deluded
Side stepping again to another verse. We are not all as stupid as you.
How old are you? A wooden box is not a person.
Putting words in your opponents mouth must be the only way you could win an argument in your imagination.
Only for you and your delusion
The fact is you are a duplicitous, disingenuous, liar.
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
Read it and weep for your delusion.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
Whatever. So much for logic.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
As I said; 'Liar'
It is written:
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
TestedandTried
New member
Was in fact mistaken in that I did believe this to be your personal interpretation going into the Greek/Hebrew on your own with a dictionary. I do have a Greek/Hebrew/English Interlinear Bible as well and know of which you speak.
The standpoint I still come from is very simply that I do trust the English Bible translators...of an excellent translation such as the NIV 1984 and the like. They have the language expertise. Surely they wouldn't have Jesus Christ referring to the Holy Spirit as He if the Bible said otherwise. I see that the matter of the use of SHE is cleared up in explanatory introduction and is referring to the following noun. I didn't research that but other here have stated this. I believe it best to hold to the age old Truths of the Bible firmly until there is some supposed proof positive evidence to the contrary.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
The NIV like all NT testament translations are from the original Greek and if you read the OP (which is a must when posting) you would learn that the original Greek NT does not translate Holy Spirit into male or female but neuter. I did the same as you when I first looked into this and saw Jesus call the Holy Spirit 'He' in my NIV but when I learnt about the original Greek (and Hebrew) I realised the truth of the matter:
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
TestedandTried
New member
Yes, I've been aware that the Bible is translated from the original (as possible) Greek and Hebrew...since about 3rd grade. I was saying that I do trust those translation which are made from the Greek and Hebrew into English for us. Also, I did understand your point...now more fully. I still say I will leave the translation to the formal translators. Other proofs that the Holy Spirit is HE or male may well exist and I pray you will have this revealed to you as you cry out for wisdom in this matter.
God is HE and so I believe this necessitates that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all HE as well. Woman is the weaker sex...more susceptible to temptation says Scripture, the weaker sex. It would be improbable that the Holy Spirit would be of the weaker sex when it is He that if sinned against carries the penalty of having committed the unpardonable sin.
True.
As "land" in Hebrew would grammatically be in the feminine, but land is neither male nor female.
Exactly.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Not a believer in mother earth, eh?
Just kidding. This guy is just being stubborn now. He's been proven wrong so many times already in this thread, there's not much point in continuing to refute him.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Unless you can speak Greek or Hebrew then you are saying you do not trust the Bible at all.
Who are these 'formal' translators? And for that matter who are the informal translators? :chuckle:
No they don't exist and if you just do a tiny bit more study (or just read the OP) you would know that.
God the father and His son are He of course because that is what the Hebrew and Greek texts state, but as said the Hebrew text states the Holy Spirit is female and the Greek uses neuter pronouns.
Citation please
Your use of the word 'improbable' just shows you are not sure of your position. You either believe the words in the Bible or you don't.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
By that logic you are also calling the Holy Spirit an inanimate object, which She isn't.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
The pronoun SHE is use every time in the original Hebrew scriptures when describing the Holy Spirit, while the New Testament Greek only used non-gender pronouns and never calls the Holy Spirit He. There are 40 examples in the OP, here is just two:
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
The pronoun SHE is use every time in the original Hebrew scriptures when describing the Holy Spirit, while the New Testament Greek only used non-gender pronouns and never calls the Holy Spirit He. There are 40 examples in the OP, here is just two:
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
That's a silly thing to say, since 'land' is only GRAMMATICALLY feminine but is neither a female or a male.
Same with "rock", it is GRAMMATICALLY feminine but is neither a female or a male.
Our Lord Jesus Christ is said to be a "rock".
So by your logic Jesus was a female.
The word 'children' is GRAMMATICALLY masculine.
By your messed up logic, all the children of Israel were males and there were no females.
You shouldn't make such a mistake as to think that a word that is GRAMMATICALLY masculine or feminine means it is a male or a female.
That is just not how it works.