The Holy Spirit has personality and is by definition therefore a person. Debate on.
Is the Holy Spirit Female?
- Thread starter WatchmanOnTheWall
- Start date
The Holy Spirit has personality and is by definition therefore a person. Debate on.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
More on personality.....
More on personality.....
As I've noted, 'God' is the source of all 'personality', so God's Spirit, and any associated divine personalities within a 'Godhead' and/or that family of emenentating sons of God, will have 'personality' because 'God' the Father has bestowed personality within them, since He is their source. So, on one level 'God' is a divine personality himself, and the source of all personality bestowed in the universe upon a vast number and variety of conscious beings and intelligences.
God's Spirit, and any of God's co-ordinate personality partners (if you assume a Trinity or some kind of 'Godhead') are self-conscious beings having 'personality', and even if one assumes the Holy Spirit is God's "active force", "power" or 'divine influence",...STILL....God's personality or some kind, manner or characteristic of divine personality is being expressed THRU that Spirit! - this is deeper metaphysical observation and full of subtle complexities on one level, but 'contextually' speaking this is quite logical and rational for even those of us more liberal spiritualists to see, and this does NOT necessarily require a belief in the Trinity to see the Holy Spirit as a 'personality', neither does it necessarily impose a non-personal nature upon the Spirit, since divine perosnality (of some kind, manner or character) is being expressed THRU the SPIRIT of 'God'.
~*~*~
For further research, I noted The Urantia Book contains extended discourse on the subject of 'personality' -
An excerpt from the UB on 'personality' -
Within the above source, the 'Paradise Trinity' is a higher cosmic conception of the original 'Godhead', composed of the Universal Father, Eternal Son and Infinite Spirit,....these are the highest more pure 'personaliziations' of Deity, being personalities and possessing personality.
Even all the non-personal energies, substances, forms and things in the universe originate from God, their Creative-source, and some divine influences may be more or less 'personal', depending on their nature and attributes.
Again,...'God' as both 'Father' and 'Mother' of creation is most rational, recognizing that the Holy Spirit reflects the feminine nature of Deity, the 'Mother' in the creative process, nurturing and maintenance of creation. These are attributal facts of nature, when we consider 'gender' in nature, and since nature is more or less the habit of God, expressed in creative and scientific observation, that is just that way Life is, a fact only an ignoramous would deny.
More on personality.....
As I've noted, 'God' is the source of all 'personality', so God's Spirit, and any associated divine personalities within a 'Godhead' and/or that family of emenentating sons of God, will have 'personality' because 'God' the Father has bestowed personality within them, since He is their source. So, on one level 'God' is a divine personality himself, and the source of all personality bestowed in the universe upon a vast number and variety of conscious beings and intelligences.
God's Spirit, and any of God's co-ordinate personality partners (if you assume a Trinity or some kind of 'Godhead') are self-conscious beings having 'personality', and even if one assumes the Holy Spirit is God's "active force", "power" or 'divine influence",...STILL....God's personality or some kind, manner or characteristic of divine personality is being expressed THRU that Spirit! - this is deeper metaphysical observation and full of subtle complexities on one level, but 'contextually' speaking this is quite logical and rational for even those of us more liberal spiritualists to see, and this does NOT necessarily require a belief in the Trinity to see the Holy Spirit as a 'personality', neither does it necessarily impose a non-personal nature upon the Spirit, since divine perosnality (of some kind, manner or character) is being expressed THRU the SPIRIT of 'God'.
~*~*~
For further research, I noted The Urantia Book contains extended discourse on the subject of 'personality' -
An excerpt from the UB on 'personality' -
Within the above source, the 'Paradise Trinity' is a higher cosmic conception of the original 'Godhead', composed of the Universal Father, Eternal Son and Infinite Spirit,....these are the highest more pure 'personaliziations' of Deity, being personalities and possessing personality.
Even all the non-personal energies, substances, forms and things in the universe originate from God, their Creative-source, and some divine influences may be more or less 'personal', depending on their nature and attributes.
Again,...'God' as both 'Father' and 'Mother' of creation is most rational, recognizing that the Holy Spirit reflects the feminine nature of Deity, the 'Mother' in the creative process, nurturing and maintenance of creation. These are attributal facts of nature, when we consider 'gender' in nature, and since nature is more or less the habit of God, expressed in creative and scientific observation, that is just that way Life is, a fact only an ignoramous would deny.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
The Bible is THE source:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/job33.pdf
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
TestedandTried
New member
I don't buy this. I do not believe the female pronoun is used for the Holy Spirit anywhere. I'll trust the work of the translators over your personal ammeteur translating work...they have been thoroughly educated and immersed in the original languages and have study the history of usages of the language...meaning 1, 2, 3, 4, ...10 and can make a proper choice. They know the colloquial and context and the history of the language along with all the nuances.
You seem to be out for new "discoveries"...hope you have considered this path/discovery may have been paved for you by Satan.
As I explained repeatedly, that linear translation added the pronoun to indicate the gender of the noun. On the same page, in the normal translation, the pronoun doesn't appear. And in the introduction to that translation, they explain this.
It is OK to admit that you are wrong once in a while. This is merely a technical point- it doesn't make your Holy Spirit a non-person or neuter or male or anything. It is just being accurate about facts.
TestedandTried
New member
I want to add that intelligent, knowledgeable, but especially spiritual Christians are very careful about what they even personally deduce about the Holy Spirit so as not to blaspheme...much less hastily pass on to others these "theories".
Tigger 2
Active member
T&T wrote (post #146):
If you truly believed that, you would certainly take the necessary steps to carefully examine the experts' grammatical and lexical knowledge of "spirit" and its pronouns and articles in both the OT and the NT.
Is. 34:16 - "Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them." - KJV,
Numbers 11:17 - "And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them;" - KJV; Tanakh.
Numbers 11:25 - "And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders" - KJV; Tanakh.
The translators of the above verses had two honest choices. They could have translated the feminine pronoun found in the Hebrew text as 'she,' or since there is no neuter form in the Hebrew, they could have translated it honestly as 'it' as they did. The OT Hebrew is more likely to use the feminine gender as neuter than they did the masculine gender.
You have taken the opinions and mistranslations of certain men as truth. If you truly believed what you wrote above, you would expend every effort to examine this subject. When you find even Trinitarian scholars admit the truth of the matter, if you ever do, I hope you can tear yourself free and believe the truth.
If you truly believed that, you would certainly take the necessary steps to carefully examine the experts' grammatical and lexical knowledge of "spirit" and its pronouns and articles in both the OT and the NT.
Is. 34:16 - "Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them." - KJV,
Numbers 11:17 - "And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them;" - KJV; Tanakh.
Numbers 11:25 - "And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders" - KJV; Tanakh.
The translators of the above verses had two honest choices. They could have translated the feminine pronoun found in the Hebrew text as 'she,' or since there is no neuter form in the Hebrew, they could have translated it honestly as 'it' as they did. The OT Hebrew is more likely to use the feminine gender as neuter than they did the masculine gender.
You have taken the opinions and mistranslations of certain men as truth. If you truly believed what you wrote above, you would expend every effort to examine this subject. When you find even Trinitarian scholars admit the truth of the matter, if you ever do, I hope you can tear yourself free and believe the truth.
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WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
You have mistakenly thought that this is my own personal translation when in fact I can not read Hebrew or Greek. What I have presented is a recognised translation called the Interlinear Bible. If you have not heard of this then you should know that it is the word for word translation of the Hebrew and Greek. All the other translations you are probably more used to are the more paraphrased translations. Look at this chart and you will see what this means:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...UICigB&biw=1280&bih=908#imgrc=3z3DZA42FMIHrM:
The actual pronouns used for the Holy Spirit when translated from the Hebrew is She:
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
You need to provide a citation for your theory. It is clear that the tittle or jot which translates to 'ni' must mean 'She' If you can provide evidence from a reliable source to state otherwise you can not be believed:
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Theories have no evidence, this however is clearly written:
Job 33:4
עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
oshth·ni
SHE made me
תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
thchi·ni
SHE is keeping alive me
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/job33.pdf
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...UICigB&biw=1280&bih=908#imgrc=3z3DZA42FMIHrM:
I provided references to this in posts 12,18 and 36 of this thread. Which you have ignored. I have even referred to the introduction of that linear translation, which explains what I have been saying:
P
erson, number, and gender. The person, number, and gender of all finite verbs are indicated by the use of pronouns as subjects, even when the subject is expressed by means of a noun or independent pronoun (e.g., Gen. 1:1 אלהים ברא [bra aleim], 'he-created God').
They use pronouns- even when the noun appears, as a way of indicating gender.
As I have repeatedly said- you can have a female person holy Spirit if you like. But don't mangle Hebrew grammar to "prove" it.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
That does not explain why the jot/tittle 'ni' is translated as She. Until you can provide information why they translated 'ni' as She rather than He you are not addressing the issue.
"ni" is the feminine form of something being done " to me".
Once again- there is no pronoun there. The linear translation added it (as they explained in the introduction) in order to enable the English reader understand the gender that is implied in the Hebrew. This is necessary because English is a language in which most objects are neuter, while in Hebrew (as well and French and many other languages) all objects have gender.
I've already given you examples of inanimate objects that have had "he" or "she" assigned to them by that translation. DO you need more examples?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Again the Holy Spirit is not an object. Until you understand that you can't see that the translation is stating the Person that is the Holy Spirit is female and that it is saying 'She made me and is keeping me alive' as you rightly point out.
What or who the Holy Spirit is not relevant to a discussion of what the Hebrew text means. You are using a mistake to support your belief.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
That's because you are one who is not born of the Spirit.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Seriously. Facts are facts. Irrespective of who presents them to you. If a devout Christian said the same things to you that I have been saying- all of a sudden you'd pay attention?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Nothing to do with being devout, it's about having the Holy Spirit inside you and having a personal relationship with that person of the trinity.
You are basically saying that "I have the Holy Spirit, so my understanding of Hebrew grammar is correct. You do not have the holy spirit inside you, therefore your understanding of Hebrew Grammar is wrong."
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
No again you are not understanding. I'm saying that if you had the Holy Spirit inside you you would know that She is not an inanimate object.