Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I do not agree with those who call themselves open theists because I do not agree with the way that they come to the conclusion that the future is open.
However, I do believe that the future is open.
Theology Club: Is the Future Open?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I do not agree with those who call themselves open theists because I do not agree with the way that they come to the conclusion that the future is open.
However, I do believe that the future is open.
I can't answer that question. But I can say God is omniscient.
The openness of God movement is not a group of the deepest thinkers in my observation. They can ask the same question and answer it by saying that God does not know what the future holds and think they are right but in reality it's only their opinions. God is not really all that omniscient in their view.
The foreknowledge of God is not merely God knowing in advance what is going to happen in the future. The word foreknowledge means to plan ahead it means God 's pre planning.
Did Yeshua get rejected and die on the cross because Israel did not believe on Him and accept Him as their Messiah by accident? Or did that happen because God planned it to happen that way?
Did Israel as a nation fail to adhere to the law of Moses by accident? Or did they fail to keep it because God planned it to happen that way?
Nothing can take place unless God allows for it to take place because God is sovereign over everything. There are certain self imposed restrictions that God places upon that sovereignty like limiting His ability to destroy the earth with a flood. God has that ability but won't do it that way because He said He won't do it that way, He self imposed a limitation to His sovereign rule. I do not think He could impose a limitation onto Himself that would limit His knowledge of the future and even if He could do such a thing the bible nowhere even hints at it. So I can't accept the idea that the future is open.
God ordains the end and God ordains the means by incorporating all that we will do as part of the process that achieves the ends. By divine enablement we exercise a will to believe that is not free to believe from within our fallen and condemned condition. That is justifying the ends as well as the means. That is how to balance the human requirements of man in his salvation with the divine sovereignty of God doing it all by grace.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So the Lord Jesus was not telling the truth when He said the following?:
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mt.4:17).
The Lord Jesus was telling them that the kingdom was imminent and all that Israel had to do so the kingdom would be brought in was to repent.
But if you are right then the Lord Jesus was not telling the truth because it was already planned that Israel would reject Him so the kingdom was not really imminent even though He said that it was..
Wrong. Yeshua made a genuine offer of the kingdom to Israel. Israel rejected Him. Just as God planned they would.
If God exists outside of time, you are correct.
The idea that the future already exists has a lot of holes in it. Clearly though, the Bible does describe God as knowing the present and past perfectly, as well as knowing all things that He has decided to bring about.
I assume that God really does one thing, and then another, and then another, and that time is a byproduct of God being aware.
You chose one translation that does agree with your theology, but there are others that don't imply what you infer.
KJV "before the world began"
RSV "promised ages ago"
ASV "promised before times eternal"
My question is what does "before time" even mean? There can be no before or after without time.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If God planned that Israel would reject the Lord Jesus then that means that the kingdom was never "imminent" at the time the Lord Jesus said it was.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Look at the verse again:
"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (xρόνος)" (2 Tim.1:9).
Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).
When the universe was created a succession of moments came into existence. Therefore, in the eternal state all things with God are simultaneous, meaning there was no succession of moments.
Perhaps it is better said that time came into existence when the universe was created.
"before the world began does not change the meaning of that verse at all, but it would rob you of your proof text.
I'm sure he did write that. So? Neither you or he have presented evidence that "there was no succession of moments" before creation.
You can say that but 2 Tim.1:9 does not.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So do you but your lies are bigger and more numerous!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Greek word translated time is chronos. Please quote a Greek expert who says that that word can mean "world."
I have no problem with the fact that the word chronos means time. In fact two of the translations I provided were
RSV "promised ages ago" (ages denotes time)
and
ASV "promised before times eternal" Which is to say a very, very, very long time ago.
Have you ever, by the way, heard the phrase "that was before my time"?
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
Which would be compatible with the Big Bang Theory. Christian Philosopher William Lane Craig believes God then entered time. Personally, I see no reason for God to place bounds on himself both in a physical sense, and a temporal sense.
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
Do you believe God is bound to do things in succession, or do you allow that God may work simultaneously?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I notice that you quoted no Greek expert who says that the Greek word chronos means "world."
That is because it chronos means time not world. That doesn't mean that the Greek experts that translated the KJV got it wrong. Do you have any idea how translation works? If for example you were going to translate the phrase "under the weather" to another language you would not use the word for weather at all. You would use words that describe not feeling well, or sickness.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then tell me the thought process which lead some translators to render the word chromos as "world."
Jerry you are being quite silly! I never insisted the the KJV was the exact correct translation. i showed you three alternative translations...
KJV " before the world began"
RSV "promised ages ago"
ASV "promised before times eternal"
...to the translation that you insisted proved God is outside of time.
All three of the translations I provided convey the same basic message. The message is that God made this promise a very, very, very long time ago! As a matter of fact, since you believe that time started when "the world began", I can't for the life of me see why that particular translation is making you turn blue in the face.