Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

[Delmar]

Jerry
True or false. The following three phrases all convey the message that God made His promise a very, very long time ago?

KJV "promised before the world began"

RSV "promised ages ago"

ASV "promised before times eternal"

Only if you assume that God exists in time.

Be honest with yourself, at least! That verse is about God's promise. Not about whether He is within time or not within time. Just admit that, all assumptions aside, at least from mans perspective those three phrases, as translated convey the message that God promise was made a very long time ago. In fact, the translation that you prefer "promised before the beginning of time" conveys the exact same message.

 

[bybee]

Be honest with yourself, at least! That verse is about God's promise. Not about whether He is within time or not within time. Just admit that, all assumptions aside, at least from mans perspective those three phrases, as translated convey the message that God promise was made a very long time ago. In fact, the translation that you prefer "promised before the beginning of time" conveys the exact same message.

It is so easy to get side-tracked from the message intent!
As you have stressed, what is important is the fact that God has made a promise to us.
Theologians may debate these things but for the average person it is enough that the promise was made.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This actually made me laugh. So when the Bible says that something happened a long time ago, it actually doesn't mean this because we can't assume that it means that something happened a long time ago.

Let us look at a translation of this verse which you will aprove and perhaps you can understand what I am talking about:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began?

Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Be honest with yourself, at least!

I can say the same about you.

That verse is about God's promise. Not about whether He is within time or not within time. Just admit that, all assumptions aside, at least from mans perspective those three phrases, as translated convey the message that God promise was made a very long time ago. In fact, the translation that you prefer "promised before the beginning of time" conveys the exact same message.

This actually made me laugh. So when the Bible says that something happened a long time ago, it actually doesn't mean this because we can't assume that it means that something happened a long time ago.

Let us look at a translation of this verse and perhaps you can understand why I say what I say:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began? Were we saved a long time ago?

Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Now at least be honest with yourself and answer those questions.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you had followed the links you would have understood why. And that word is in fact in the verse in question, and does not mean "time."

You can be the next to address the following verse since it has a huge bearing on whether or not God exists in a timeless state or not:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

If God exists in "time" then were we not saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began?

Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).

Now it cannot be both. If we were saved before the ages began then it cannot be said that we were saved when we believed the gospel.

And likewise, if we are not saved until we believe the gospel then it cannot be said that we were saved before the ages began.

So which one is it? When are we saved?

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Only if you assume that God exists in time. Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
​

The phrase "ïn Him" is used by Paul in his epistles to refer to being ïn Christ," in the Body of Christ. But the Body of Christ did not even exist before the foundation of the world.

If God exists in time then how can it be said that we were chosen "ïn Him" before the foundation of the world since the Body of Christ did not even exist then? I believe that that can only be true if God's existence is timeless.

This is one of those rare times I agree with you Jerry. Just don't let it go to your head. God's existence is timeless, or put another way, He is outside of time, both before time's beginning and after time's end, He is.

 

[Desert Reign]

Let us look at a translation of this verse and perhaps you can understand why I say what I say:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

​

Jerry, it is perfectly comprehensible why you say what you say. You start from the presupposition that God does not experience time (a.k.a. a succession of events) and lo and behold you find all sorts of scriptures that appear to agree with you. That's all it is.

Your own view is self-defeating because if God is outside of time, then he didn't do anything before anything else. Even if there was a point when time began, God can't have done anything before that point. The very idea that time began is completely nonsensical.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your own view is self-defeating because if God is outside of time, then he didn't do anything before anything else. Even if there was a point when time began, God can't have done anything before that point. The very idea that time began is completely nonsensical.

My view is supported by the Scriptures.

And you conveniently failed to address this verse:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began?

Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Why did you not answer, especially since you think that you know everything about this subject?

 

[intojoy]

I can say the same about you.











Let us look at a translation of this verse and perhaps you can understand why I say what I say:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began? Were we saved a long time ago?



Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Now at least be honest with yourself and answer those questions.

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began? Were we saved a long time ago?
YES

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began? Were we saved a long time ago?
YES

Then why does Paul indicate that in order to be saved a person must first believe?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

 

[intojoy]

Then why does Paul indicate that in order to be saved a person must first believe?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Because we do have to believe before we are saved.

 

[intojoy]

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, (2 Timothy 1:8, 9 NASB)


We are already glorified as well.

How?

Because what God foreknows must come to pass.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are already glorified as well.

How?

Because we are completely identified with the Lord Jesus in His glory in heaven:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

 

[intojoy]

Because we are completely identified with the Lord Jesus in His glory in heaven:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

We were saved past tense even before we were saved when believing because God foreknew we would believe because He planned it to happen that way.

 

[intojoy]

The future is not open, it's closed

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because we do have to believe before we are saved.

But this verse speaks of us being given salvation before the ages began, and we did not believe before then:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

 

[intojoy]

But this verse speaks of us being given salvation before the ages began, and we did not believe before then:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

That is because what God foreknew God pre planned and what God pre plans will come to pass or He would not be God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We were saved past tense even before we were saved...

What a nonsensical answer!

 

[intojoy]

That is because what God foreknew God pre planned and what God pre plans will come to pass or He would not be God.

We did not take physical possession of life until we were born yet all of our members were made by Him before even coming into the womb.

Does God take into mind every detail of every future event? Before it occurs?

The answer is yes.

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. (Matthew 10:30 NASB)

"Does He not see my ways And number all my steps? (Job 31:4 NASB)

 

[intojoy]

Is the Future Open?

What a nonsensical answer!

View attachment 18591View attachment 18592
Context is everything my good jerry.
You cut and paste my posts as you cut and paste the scriptures to make them say as you would like them to say deductively rather than inductively.