Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

[Delmar]

You need to go back and read the posts because it is obvious that you are missing something.

Now let us look at this verse:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Were we actually saved and that salvation was given to us before the ages began?

Or were we saved in "time" when we actually believed?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, (not saved yet) Christ died for us.

Romans 10:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be (future tense) saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, (not saved yet) Christ died for us.

Romans 10:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be (future tense) saved.

So what?

All you are doing is failing to address what is said here:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

If God exists in time then according to this timeline we were saved in Christ Jesus before the ages began.

Are you willing to argue that we were saved before the ages began which was prior to believing?

If not then please explain what is being said at 2 Timothy 1:9.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, (not saved yet) Christ died for us.

Romans 10:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be (future tense) saved.

<DIR>Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [NASB]


Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [NASB]



</DIR>

 

[Delmar]

<DIR>Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [NASB]


Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [NASB]



</DIR>

Yes, grace is the gift of God! Do you have another point to make?

 

[intojoy]

Is the Future Open?

So what?



All you are doing is failing to address what is said here:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

If God exists in time then according to this timeline we were saved in Christ Jesus before the ages began.



Are you willing to argue that we were saved before the ages began which was prior to believing?



If not then please explain what is being said at 2 Timothy 1:9.

Yes. Of course.
Salvation would never have happened to you if God did not choose you. You did not choose God no matter how you think you did and think you can explain away that you did not choose Him. He chose you before time began and therefore your salvation was guaranteed before you had ever been born. All of your sins were forgiven in Christ before you even commited your first sin. All of your future sins are already paid for.

 

[intojoy]

Jerry, technically we were not saved until we believed but theoretically our salvation was guaranteed and nothing could have changed the outcome of our coming to believe. Nothing.

Our salvation may not have been applied unto us until we believed but because of the grace of God's election we could not resist His call to faith because He chose to save us from out of the mass of humanity.

 

[zippy2006]

But this argument suffers from the same problem that all strongly dualistic theologies suffer from. It is all surmise and no proof. It only defers confronting the inevitable paradoxes to a subsequent level of logic. It's like trying to untangle a ball of string, the more you straighten out the cord at one end, the more knotty it gets further down.

You keep asserting without any hint of argument or rationale. You haven't even demonstrated that a knot exists, you've just repeated the old canards like Delmar's "Platonic inheritance" theory.

The quip to Shugart reads like, "An atemporal being could never act temporally." Not only is this not intuitive, but the masters of Christianity, East and West, disagree. You have an enormous burden of proof that cannot be met by allusions and quips.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He chose you before time began and therefore your salvation was guaranteed before you had ever been born. All of your sins were forgiven in Christ before you even commited your first sin. All of your future sins are already paid for.

So you still maintain that God does not exist in a timeless state and the following timeline reveals that we were saved even before we existed and before we believed:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Then Paul and those with him were wrong when they said that a person has to believe in order to be saved:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, technically we were not saved until we believed but theoretically our salvation was guaranteed and nothing could have changed the outcome of our coming to believe. Nothing.

You cling to the Calvinist nonsense that only some people have the ability to believe the gospel and it is impossible for others. But you have yet explained how it is possible for those who are perishing and do not believe could have believed if not for the fact that their mind's were blinded to the light of the gospel:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

Paul certainly believed that some of those who are perishing could have believed the gospel if not for the fact that their mind's were blinded to its truth.

But the Calvinists teach that those who are perishing do not have the ability to see the light of the gospel. In other words, the Calvinists teach that those who are perishing are blind to the truth of the gospel when they emerge from the womb.

But I am still waiting for someone to tell me how is it possible for someone who is already blind to be blinded. Perhaps you can answer that.

 

[Delmar]

You keep asserting without any hint of argument or rationale. You haven't even demonstrated that a knot exists, you've just repeated the old canards like Delmar's "Platonic inheritance" theory.

The quip to Shugart reads like, "An atemporal being could never act temporally." Not only is this not intuitive, but the masters of Christianity, East and West, disagree. You have an enormous burden of proof that cannot be met by allusions and quips.

If the canard fits, wear it :idunno:

 

[intojoy]

You cling to the Calvinist nonsense that only some people have the ability to believe the gospel and it is impossible for others. But you have yet explained how it is possible for those who are perishing and do not believe could have believed if not for the fact that their mind's were blinded to the light of the gospel:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

Paul certainly believed that some of those who are perishing could have believed the gospel if not for the fact that their mind's were blinded to its truth.



But the Calvinists teach that those who are perishing do not have the ability to see the light of the gospel. In other words, the Calvinists teach that those who are perishing are blind to the truth of the gospel when they emerge from the womb.



But I am still waiting for someone to tell me how is it possible for someone who is already blind to be blinded. Perhaps you can answer that.

Did you choose Christ? Or did He choose you?

 

[Lighthouse]

So the human race is saved:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Do you really think that at the time when Paul wrote those words the human race was saved?

I misspoke. He was referring to the Body of Christ. And when speaking corporately it does not necessitate that those yet to enter in are already in.

Please do, because I tire of trying to reason with someone who refuses to use his brain.

Imagine that! The human race is saved!

DUH!

I'm trying to speak to you on your level so I turned it off.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I misspoke. He was referring to the Body of Christ. And when speaking corporately it does not necessitate that those yet to enter in are already in.

If we are to believe your idea then all of those in the Body of Christ were given grace before they even existed.

I'm trying to speak to you on your level so I turned it off.

It is still turned off evidently!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did you choose Christ? Or did He choose you?

He chose me because I believed:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Jerry, technically we were not saved until we believed but theoretically our salvation was guaranteed and nothing could have changed the outcome of our coming to believe. Nothing.

You cling to the Calvinist nonsense that only some people have the ability to believe the gospel and it is impossible for others. But you have yet explained how it is possible for those who are perishing and do not believe could have believed if not for the fact that their mind's were blinded to the light of the gospel:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

Paul certainly believed that some of those who are perishing could have believed the gospel if not for the fact that their mind's were blinded to its truth.

But the Calvinists teach that those who are perishing do not have the ability to see the light of the gospel. In other words, the Calvinists teach that those who are perishing are blind to the truth of the gospel when they emerge from the womb.

But I am still waiting for someone to tell me how is it possible for someone who is already blind to be blinded. Perhaps you can answer that.

 

[Lighthouse]

If we are to believe your idea then all of those in the Body of Christ were given grace before they even existed.

That is neither what I stated, nor what I implied you intellectual neophyte.

 

[intojoy]

He chose me because I believed:

"But we 13).​

.

So in other words He chose you because you chose Him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is neither what I stated, nor what I implied you intellectual neophyte.

I think that you are so confused that you really do not know what you imply. Look at what you said:

I misspoke. He was referring to the Body of Christ. And when speaking corporately it does not necessitate that those yet to enter in are already in.

That answers nothing about this verse:

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

What does your idea that "it does not necessitate that those yet to enter in are already in" have to do with this verse?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So in other words He chose you because you chose Him.

No, I never said that. Why are you so anxious to put words in my mouth that I never said? Don't you have something better to do with your time?

 

[intojoy]

Is the Future Open?

No, I never said that. Why are you so anxious to put words in my mouth that I never said? Don't you have something better to do with your time?

Calm down bro.

You said He chose you because you believed.

I say what you're saying can also be said that He chose you because you chose Him.

You believed what?

That He chose you?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

He chose me because I believed:

Did God look ahead in time and see that you would believe?

Did God just decree that anyone who believes He will then choose, not actually knowing who "anyone" would actually be?

Did God learn that you chose at the moment you chose since "God does not know the future" and then declare that you are now chosen?

Something else?

AMR