Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry you are being quite silly! I never insisted the the KJV was the exact correct translation.

Then why did you say the following?:

before the world began does not change the meaning of that verse at all, but it would rob you of your proof text.

 

[Delmar]

Then why did you say the following?:

Because it is an accurate statement.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because it is an accurate statement.

Well, I have a Greek expert who says that the word chromos means "time."

On the other hand, you have failed to provide a Greek expert which says that it means "world."

At this point that is the difference between our positions.

 

[Delmar]

Well, I have a Greek expert who says that the word chromos means "time."

On the other hand, you have failed to provide a Greek expert which says that it means "world."

At this point that is the difference between our positions.

I have never argued that the word chronos means world but , if you want to keep claiming to have defeated an argument I never made, be my guest. You have successfully annihilated a straw dummy!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have never argued that the word chronos means world but , if you want to keep claiming to have defeated an argument I never made, be my guest. You have successfully annihilated a straw dummy!

Here is what you said and only you would describe it as a straw dummy:

You chose one translation that does agree with your theology, but there are others that don't imply what you infer.

I was merely replying to your assertion that there are other translations which do not imply what I infer.

That is why I asked if the word "world" was a valid meaning of the Greek word chronos and if you could quote a Greek expert who says that chronos can mean "world."

 

[Delmar]

Here is what you said and only you would describe it as a straw dummy:



I was merely replying to your assertion that there are other translations which do not imply what I infer.

That is why I asked if the word "world" was a valid meaning of the Greek word chronos and if you could quote a Greek expert who says that chronos can mean "world."

Jerry
True or false. The following three phrases all convey the message that God made His promise a very, very long time ago?

KJV "promised before the world began"

RSV "promised ages ago"

ASV "promised before times eternal"




Let the record show that I did, in fact, provide three translations that do not imply what Jerry infers!

 

[Desert Reign]

Look at the verse again:

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (xρόνος)" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).

When the universe was created a succession of moments came into existence. Therefore, in the eternal state all things with God are simultaneous, meaning there was no succession of moments.

Perhaps it is better said that time came into existence when the universe was created.

No. That is pure interpretation. Here is the phrase:

πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων

Literally:
Before the times of the ages.
or alternatively
Before the ages of the times.

The word αἰωνίων (our word aeon) is often translated as of eternity or forever for example in Rom 9:5

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας

God blessed forever. In other words (in this context) continuously henceforth.

In the passage in question, really the whole phrase is just hyperbole. You can't infer anything more specific from it about time coming into existence when the world was created. That is is just importing philosophy into the text. Delmar is right: it just means 'a very very long time ago'.
One thing you could infer justifiably from this phrase is that the event in question, namely God creating his purpose to save us and call us to a holy life in Christ, occurred before anything else meaningful ever happened. Because that's what usually happens in the 'ages'. They are where things happen. So we could say that God creating this purpose is the first meaningful thing that ever happened.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων

Literally:
Before the times of the ages.
or alternatively
Before the ages of the times.

So if we are to believe you then there was a an existence when "time" was not a part of any age.

Let us look at this verseagain:

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (xρόνος)" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).

When the universe was created a succession of moments came into existence. Therefore, in the eternal state all things with God are simultaneous, meaning there was no succession of moments.

 

[Ktoyou]

Jerry
If I make the statement that God is real, and not fictitious in any way, would you say that I am limiting God by claiming He is bound by reality?

If God actually does one thing, and then another, and then another, it does not mean that He is bound by anything but reality.

God is an essence
Reality is a concept
One cannot define a concept without an essentiality, for all concepts are the outgrowth of what is essence.
The end.

 

[Ktoyou]

Well, I have a Greek expert who says that the word chromos means "time."

On the other hand, you have failed to provide a Greek expert which says that it means "world."

At this point that is the difference between our positions.

I have a Greek word for you.:chuckle:

 

[Delmar]

When the universe was created a succession of moments came into existence. Therefore, in the eternal state all things with God are simultaneous, meaning there was no succession of moments.

This assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This assumes facts not in evidence.

You have given absolutey no evidence which proves what I said is in error. And you failed to answer what I said here:

So if we are to believe you then there was a an existence when "time" was not a part of any age.​

 

[Delmar]

God is an essence
Reality is a concept
One cannot define a concept without an essentiality, for all concepts are the outgrowth of what is essence.
The end.

re·al·i·ty
[ree-al-i-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural re·al·i·ties for 3, 5–7.
1.
the state or quality of being real.
2.
resemblance to what is real.
3.
a real thing or fact.
4.
real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5.
Philosophy .
a.
something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b.
something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
I am sticking with my story! God is real!

 

[Delmar]

You have given absolutey no evidence which proves what I said is in error. And you failed to answer what I said here:

That is true. All I'm saying is you have yet to prove your case.

So if we are to believe you then there was a an existence when "time" was not a part of any age.​

I don't assume that.

 

[Desert Reign]

So if we are to believe you then there was a an existence when "time" was not a part of any age.

Let us look at this verseagain:

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (xρόνος)" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).

When the universe was created a succession of moments came into existence. Therefore, in the eternal state all things with God are simultaneous, meaning there was no succession of moments.

If you are to believe me, then you will believe that

the whole phrase is just hyperbole

Because whoever Richard Trench is and whoever you are, it doesn't change the fact that in the original Greek text the word for time does not apear as Χρόνος but as χρόνων, which is plural. This fact alone should cause you to be a llittle cautious. So your (his) idea that this text refers to a succession of moments beginning at creation cannot be correct.

We have had disputes before over Greek texts. You can quote from other people and you can select whichever one suits your purpose (it's called quote mining) but your own knowledge is deficient and your arguments will always be weak and unconvincing because of that and you will keep on falling on your face as with the above example where you have just pulled a definition from a reference book with a definition (naturally) in a singular form of the word and yet you failed to take into account that in the context, the word was plural.

And I know from past experience that you will find it difficult to accept this and you will go on and on clutching at more and more futile straws, protesting your rightness, until the cows have come home on their own. So enjoy it, while I get on with life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you are to believe me, then you will believe that

Of course you failed to answer what I said about what you said here:

πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων

Literally:
Before the times of the ages.
or alternatively
Before the ages of the times.

So if we are to believe you then there was a an existence when "time" was not a part of any age.

That must be what you believe so you just ignored what I said. And what about "the alternative reading that you gave?:

or alternatively
Before the ages of the times

Are we supposed to believe that there were previous ages which were not made up of time?

Of course a literal reading is speaking about before the ages of the times and that can only mean before time began. And that is why we see the following translation:

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" (2 Tim.1:9; NIV).​

And this one:

"who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began" (NKJV).​

I guess that the translators of these just do not have the imagination which you have and they just could not force their minds into believing that "times" existed before the "ages of the times."

or alternatively
Before the ages of the times

 

[Delmar]

Of course you failed to answer what I said about what you said here:

While we are on the subject of people failing to answer

Jerry
True or false. The following three phrases all convey the message that God made His promise a very, very long time ago?

KJV "promised before the world began"

RSV "promised ages ago"

ASV "promised before times eternal"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry
True or false. The following three phrases all convey the message that God made His promise a very, very long time ago?

Only if you assume that God exists in time. Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

The phrase "ïn Him" is used by Paul in his epistles to refer to being ïn Christ," in the Body of Christ. But the Body of Christ did not even exist before the foundation of the world.

If God exists in time then how can it be said that we were chosen "ïn Him" before the foundation of the world since the Body of Christ did not even exist then? I believe that that can only be true if God's existence is timeless.

 

[Desert Reign]

So if we are to believe you then there was a an existence when "time" was not a part of any age.

Like I said, you will continue to protest and distort. It's only natural when your pride prevents you from being open to new truths. It wouldn't surprise me if you actually earn money from preaching whatever it is you preach. What I've said was perfectly clear.

Only if you assume that God exists in time.

This actually made me laugh. So when the Bible says that something happened a long time ago, it actually doesn't mean this because we can't assume that it means that something happened a long time ago. Jerry, if you can restate this in a really pithy or aphoristic way, I'll include it in my sig for you. How about 'We can't assume that a long time ago means a long time ago'? Perhaps this may sound a little off colour but you remind me of an interview I saw conducted with a person who was accused of raping children. He got off the sentence by sort of plea-bargaining a lesser sentence of non-rape child abuse. I remember him stating proudly that he was a convicted non-rapist sex offender. Some people will go to such lengths to justify themselves when they are in the wrong.

 

[Lighthouse]

You are a joke!

First, you did not even have the right Greek word when you said:

That is not the Greek word in the verse under discussion. Then you said that the Greek word does not mean time.

If you had followed the links you would have understood why. And that word is in fact in the verse in question, and does not mean "time."

But when I quoted a Greek expert who says that it does you just ignored it:

This is a lie.

When you brought up the word "chronos," I looked it up and corrected my error; and then I made the same point Desert Reign later made, and you ignored it when I did so.

Well, I have a Greek expert who says that the word chromos means "time."

It's "chronos," not "chromos."

On the other hand, you have failed to provide a Greek expert which says that it means "world."

I pointed you to the lexicon which showed why the verse was translated as such in the KJV and you ignored it.

No. That is pure interpretation. Here is the phrase:

πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων

Literally:
Before the times of the ages.
or alternatively
Before the ages of the times.

The word αἰωνίων (our word aeon) is often translated as of eternity or forever for example in Rom 9:5

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας

God blessed forever. In other words (in this context) continuously henceforth.

In the passage in question, really the whole phrase is just hyperbole. You can't infer anything more specific from it about time coming into existence when the world was created. That is is just importing philosophy into the text. Delmar is right: it just means 'a very very long time ago'.
One thing you could infer justifiably from this phrase is that the event in question, namely God creating his purpose to save us and call us to a holy life in Christ, occurred before anything else meaningful ever happened. Because that's what usually happens in the 'ages'. They are where things happen. So we could say that God creating this purpose is the first meaningful thing that ever happened.

Exactly!