Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Yes, but Calvinists teach that God is living in the every present now and with Him there is nothing before or after.

You do like to be redundant, quoting this time and again, forcing me to repeat my unanswered question, in effect: "So what?"

Rather than naked quotation, you need to tie all that cogency from Ames to the particulars of my earlier response.

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, that verse says what it says. You're digging too deep looking to prove open theism by irrelevant context.

Yes, it says that at some point "time" came into existence. That means the eternal state is timeless.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You do like to be redundant, quoting this time and again, forcing me to repeat my unanswered question, in effect: "So what?"

If you do not get it by now you never will.

 

[intojoy]

Yes, it says that at some point "time" came into existence. That means the eternal state is timeless.

That doesn't prove that God doesn't know the future.

 

[Totton Linnet]

God IS the future

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That doesn't prove that God doesn't know the future.

The future with God is the ever present "now."

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

 

[intojoy]

The future with God is the ever present "now."

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

That is your opinion and not scripture.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is your opinion and not scripture.

What I believe is supported by this verse:

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (xρόνος)" (2 Tim.1:9).​

Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).

Before this succession of moments came into existence all things with God were simultaneous, meaning there was no succession of moments. There is also no before or after with Him so we van know that any mention of His "foreknowledge" cannot be understood in a literal sense.

Despite this you take it literally.

God foreknew everyone that would come to faith because He pre planned for them to do so.

So God only planned for some to come to the knowledge of the truth all the while knowing that others had no chance at all to come to that knowledge. That makes no sense when we look at these words:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim.2:3-4).​

According to your ideas God planned for only some men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved but at the same time He wanted all men to be saved!

 

[intojoy]

I'm
Not going to go for your multi quote presentations anymore. Because by putting your first paragraph out and the dropping in others you are assuming that what you say in the front of your post is true. It is not true.

 

[intojoy]

Is the Future Open?

.



Despite this you take it literally. (Jerry)







So God only planned for some to come to the knowledge of the truth all the while knowing that others had no chance at all to come to that knowledge. That makes no sense when we look at these words: (jerry)

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim.2:3-4).​

According to your ideas God planned for only some men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved but at the same time He wanted all men to be saved![/QUOTE]

 

[intojoy]

So God only planned for some to come to the knowledge of the truth all the while knowing that others had no chance at all to come to that knowledge. That makes no sense when we look at these words: (jerry)

Jerry, why is that a problem?

 

[intojoy]

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"[/I] (1 Tim.2:3-4).[/INDENT]

Obviously God willed for all men to be saved but decided that not all men would be saved because in the decree of God to save men not all men were included in that decree.

 

[intojoy]

I think jerry bro, that you are fixated with defending fair play from God.

That is what has led you to believe that God does not know in advance who will believe and who will reject Christ. To me bro that is your sin nature attempting to make sense of why sin exists within creation.

No matter how you try to justify God for allowing satan to be the god of this cosmos you fail. The bible does not tell us why satan fell. It tells us God did not create evil but evil was found in satan.
I think you are being prideful to try and force your opinions into what the bible does not reveal. Paul said that God does as he pleases with His creation and we do well not to question it. Job had no clue of FairPlay we as created beings can ask God why God let Job suffer for no reason but we according to scripture do not possess that right because we are created beings.

I can sympathize with your accusing God of only saving some and doing it lottery style but I will not question God's choice to do so. Rather than question Him I thank Him for loving me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Obviously God willed for all men to be saved but decided that not all men would be saved because in the decree of God to save men not all men were included in that decree.

So God changed His mind despite the evidence to the contrary:

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).​

"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" (Mal.3:6).​

Do you not believe God is immutable?

 

[intojoy]

So God changed His mind despite the evidence to the contrary:

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).​

"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" (Mal.3:6).​

Do you not believe God is immutable?

God is immutable.

 

[intojoy]

God willed that all should be saved. Some are not. Why?

It is not because He is leaving it up to man to decide his own fate.
Man's fate is already decided already lost and condemned. That is why salvation is necessary because man is utterly lost.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God is immutable.

It seems as if you want it both ways by what you said here:

Obviously God willed for all men to be saved but decided that not all men would be saved because in the decree of God to save men not all men were included in that decree.

According to this He first willed all men to be saved then decided that all would not be saved.

That does not speak of an immutable God.

 

[intojoy]

It seems as if you want it both ways by what you said here:







According to this He first willed all men to be saved then decided that all would not be saved.



That does not speak of an immutable God.

Sure it does

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sure it does

So are you saying that God first willed all men to be saved then decided that all would not be saved?

That certainly is what I understand by your words here:

Obviously God willed for all men to be saved but decided that not all men would be saved because in the decree of God to save men not all men were included in that decree.

Besides that, if only certain people can be saved because of the foreknowledge of God then what can we make of what is said here?:

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11).​

How can the grace of God which brings salvation appear to all men since, according to you, some men have no possibility at all to be saved?

 

[intojoy]

Can u stick to one Q at a time?