Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is translated in the KJV as "time" on 33 different occasions.
WRONG!
The Greek word translated as "time" at 2 Timothy 1:9 is χρόνος.
Theology Club: Is the Future Open?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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It is translated in the KJV as "time" on 33 different occasions.
WRONG!
The Greek word translated as "time" at 2 Timothy 1:9 is χρόνος.
That doesn't make it right.
Did you follow the link? The word is translated as "the world began," in that verse. And, FYI, 2 Timothy 1:9 KJV reads "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began..,"
And after looking up the passage in Greek it appears that it actually refers to time eternal, not before time.
P.S.
"Before time" is an oxymoron.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).
Well...you say, He submitted to the Father and we read that FULNESS of the Godhead dwelled in Him.
journey
New member
Psalms 139:13-18 KJV For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! 18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Matthew 10:29-31 KJV Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matthew 10:29-31 KJV Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Bible teaches that God knows everything in the past, present and future. And since God cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.
And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way? Therefore, some argue that man really has no free will since all that will happen has already been determined.
journey
New member
To me - it makes no difference that God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of all things. I obviously don't know what God knows, so I have free will to choose anything I want to. It really just doesn't matter that God knows what I'll choose, because it changes nothing that I'll do or don't do.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
But the question remains, "Can you do anything that is contrary to what God knows you will do in the future?"
In other words, if you are right and God knows things which will happen in the future by His foreknowledge then the future is set in stone. Therefore, it is impossible for you to do anything which goes contrary to what is already set in stone. Therefore, if you are right about God's foreknowledge then you have no free will because your actions have been predetermined.
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The fact that we may act is established by the decree of God.
WCF XIX.I God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.
Srcs:
Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live
The decision of most of the points in controversy between Calvinists and Arminians, as President Edwards has observed, depends on the determination of the question - Wherein consist that freedom of will which is requisite to moral agency?
According to Arminians three things belong to the freedom of the will: -
1. That the will has a self-determining power, or a certain sovereignty over itself, and its own acts, whereby it determines its own volitions.
2. A state of indifference, or that equilibrium, whereby the will is without all antecedent bias, and left entirely free from any prepossessing inclination to one side or the other.
3. That the volitions, or acts of the will, are contingent, not only as opposed to all constraint, but to all necessity, or any fixed and certain connection with some previous ground or reason of their existence.
Discussion:
Calvinists, on the other hand, contend that a power in the will to determine its own determinations, is either unmeaning, or supposes, contrary to the first principles of philosophy, something to arise without a cause; that the idea of the soul exerting an act of choice or preference, while, at the same time, the will is in a perfect equilibrium, or state of indifference, is full of absurdity and self-contradiction; and that, as nothing can ever come to pass without a cause, the acts of the will are never contingent, or without necessity - understanding by necessity, a necessity of consequence, or an infallible connection with something foregoing.
According to Calvinists, the liberty of a moral agent consists in the power of acting according to a choice; and those actions are free which are performed without any external compulsion or restraint, in consequence of the determinations of his own mind.
"The necessity of man's willing and acting in conformity to his apprehensions and disposition, is, in their opinion, fully consistent with all the liberty which can belong to a rational nature. The infinite Being necessarily wills and acts according to the absolute perfection of his nature, yet with the highest liberty. Angels necessarily will and act according to the perfection of their natures, yet with full liberty; for this sort of necessity is so far from interfering with liberty of will, that the perfection of the will's liberty lies in such a necessity. The very essence of its liberty lies in acting consciously, choosing or refusing without any external compulsion or constraint, but according to inward principles of rational apprehension and natural disposition."
Srcs:
Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live
The decision of most of the points in controversy between Calvinists and Arminians, as President Edwards has observed, depends on the determination of the question - Wherein consist that freedom of will which is requisite to moral agency?
According to Arminians three things belong to the freedom of the will: -
1. That the will has a self-determining power, or a certain sovereignty over itself, and its own acts, whereby it determines its own volitions.
2. A state of indifference, or that equilibrium, whereby the will is without all antecedent bias, and left entirely free from any prepossessing inclination to one side or the other.
3. That the volitions, or acts of the will, are contingent, not only as opposed to all constraint, but to all necessity, or any fixed and certain connection with some previous ground or reason of their existence.
Discussion:
Calvinists, on the other hand, contend that a power in the will to determine its own determinations, is either unmeaning, or supposes, contrary to the first principles of philosophy, something to arise without a cause; that the idea of the soul exerting an act of choice or preference, while, at the same time, the will is in a perfect equilibrium, or state of indifference, is full of absurdity and self-contradiction; and that, as nothing can ever come to pass without a cause, the acts of the will are never contingent, or without necessity - understanding by necessity, a necessity of consequence, or an infallible connection with something foregoing.
According to Calvinists, the liberty of a moral agent consists in the power of acting according to a choice; and those actions are free which are performed without any external compulsion or restraint, in consequence of the determinations of his own mind.
"The necessity of man's willing and acting in conformity to his apprehensions and disposition, is, in their opinion, fully consistent with all the liberty which can belong to a rational nature. The infinite Being necessarily wills and acts according to the absolute perfection of his nature, yet with the highest liberty. Angels necessarily will and act according to the perfection of their natures, yet with full liberty; for this sort of necessity is so far from interfering with liberty of will, that the perfection of the will's liberty lies in such a necessity. The very essence of its liberty lies in acting consciously, choosing or refusing without any external compulsion or constraint, but according to inward principles of rational apprehension and natural disposition."
Src:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/ (Chapter XIX. Of Free Will)
AMR
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, but Calvinists teach that God is living in the every present now and with Him there is nothing before or after. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:
"Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another prominent Calvinist author, Loraine Boettner:
"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).
Jerry, our future is set in stone. God has included the means as well as the ends in His foreknowledge.
God foreknew everyone that would come to faith because He pre planned for them to do so. Part of and included in that plan was our prayers and our use of the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit.
That means that if we decide to use our gifts of knowledge as I believe both you and amr have the gift, then the use of that gift will contribute to the salvation and spiritual life of others who God planned to be saved.
Your problem is your open theism claims that God is not omniscient but limited in His ability to see the future, you build with combustible material here. Poof
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I agree with the following words of Loraine Boettner and does what is in "bold" here indicate God is not omniscient?:
"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If Ames is wrong then explain the meaning of this verse:
"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (xρόνος)" (2 Tim.1:9).
Richard Trench writes, "Χρόνος is time, contemplated simply as such; the succession of moments" (Trench's New Testament Synonyms of the New Testament).
Before this succession of moments came into existence all things with God were simultaneous, meaning there was no succession of moments:
"Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
How nice. So hat you and Loraine believe is that God is waiting in the eternal order to see what we in time are going to do .
That sounds like a pre conceived philosophy unsupported by scripture to me.