Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

Vaquero45

Vaquero45

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Jerry Shugart said:
Perhaps it is. But let us look at what you said earlier and my response:



What can the words "before the times of the ages" mean if it is not referring to "before time began"?

Does not the word "ages" speak of time? Did time exist before the first age began? I cannot see how it could.

What interpretation would you put on those words?
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Depends on what "the ages" are and if time existed before them. At the moment my basic answer would be "before recorded history" but I'm not entirely satisfied with that. "The times" suggests periods of known history to me, "the ages" could be the entirety of time since creation, and maybe even before? or could refer to specific ages. I found an article where someone put a fair amount of work into answering this, I don't know if I agree with it, I've only really skimmed through it so far and I don't know who wrote it, but it looks interesting. Sharing the link since you also are interested in the topic. Not posting it as an answer.

http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.uk/uploadData/6-11. IMMORTALITY REDEMPTION PLAN.pdf

If I improve or change my answer I'll respond again. I don't see "before time began" being the simple answer though, I still think putting "began/beginning" in there is a leap.
 
journey

journey

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Almighty God had FOREKNOWLEDGE of ALL before the foundation of the world. This does not hint that God ordered our lives for us - just that He knew what we would do and when. Jesus Christ knew that He would go to the cross and when, and He went willingly.

This also doesn't hint that Calvinism is a true doctrine. So, know that I'm not a Calvinist. God didn't pre-program anyone to accept or reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Jesus Christ died on the Cross for ALL the world, and literally anyone can accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. God knowing who will or won't accept Jesus Christ changes nothing, including man's free will to choose. God's FOREKNOWLEDGE helps to explain many portions of Scripture, but it doesn't hint that God made things to happen any particular way. Just my two cents worth.
 
intojoy

intojoy

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Jerry Shugart said:
If God knows all things which will happen in the future and since He cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.



And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?



Therefore, some argue that man really has no free will since all that will happen has already been determined.



Is that what you believe?
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There is no such thing as unlimited free will.
 
intojoy

intojoy

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The idea that people are not born in sin is not biblical either. I guess despite all of the knowledge you share in many of your posts eventually these two points is where the unity between us ends.
You have a lot of good things to say but these two are critical errors.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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journey said:
Almighty God had FOREKNOWLEDGE of ALL before the foundation of the world.
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So if you are right and God has a foreknowledge of all things. And since God cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.

And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?

How would you answer that question?
 
Ask Mr. Religion

Ask Mr. Religion

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Jerry Shugart said:
So if you are right and God has a foreknowledge of all things. And since God cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.

And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?

How would you answer that question?
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Well I would start by noting that your assumption God can be wrong will be taken to task by the open theist who claims God is just so smart He can probabilistically figure things out. It is their common and erroneous rationale to avoid claiming God is wrong. In effect, God is the Survivor God, outwitting, outlasting, and outplaying, His autonomous creatures. So it is good to see you would admit God is wrong about things. ;)

Seems to me you will need to grapple with the issues I and others have raised along these lines elsewhere:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41620
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63586

You also need to come to grips with the fact that by your "logic", the God of Abraham knew less than God does today. God seems to be getting smarter every day as He discovers the decisions of His creatures, decisions He apparently could only "predict" but could not know with utter certainty until His autonomous creatures acted.

Which is better? God who predicts with Ivory Soap percentages, 99.44 percentages or one who knows with 100 percent certainty? Even the smallest chance of being wrong means we should not be assuming God will keep His promises.

Such is the folly of man's attempt to make out God according to our finite minds because we want to think we can get God off the hook for evil.

AMR
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Well I would start by noting that your assumption God can be wrong will be taken to task by the open theist who claims God is just so smart He can probabilistically figure things out.
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I never said nor hinted that God can be wrong!

I challenge you to quote me saying such a thing!
 
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intojoy

intojoy

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
Well I would start by noting that your assumption God can be wrong will be taken to task by the open theist who claims God is just so smart He can probabilistically figure things out. It is their common and erroneous rationale to avoid claiming God is wrong. In effect, God is the Survivor God, outwitting, outlasting, and outplaying, His autonomous creatures. So it is good to see you would admit God is wrong about things. ;)

Seems to me you will need to grapple with the issues I and others have raised along these lines elsewhere:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41620
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63586

You also need to come to grips with the fact that by your "logic", the God of Abraham knew less than God does today. God seems to be getting smarter every day as He discovers the decisions of His creatures, decisions He apparently could only "predict" but could not know with utter certainty until His autonomous creatures acted.

Which is better? God who predicts with Ivory Soap percentages, 99.44 percentages or one who knows with 100 percent certainty? Even the smallest chance of being wrong means we should not be assuming God will keep His promises.

Such is the folly of man's attempt to make out God according to our finite minds because we want to think we can get God off the hook for evil.

AMR
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I'll check out the threads.

Whose the pic of in Jerry's avatar?

Is that who he thinks he is now? :):):)
 
Vaquero45

Vaquero45

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Jerry Shugart said:
I am wondered what evidence you have that makes you think that God is bound by time?
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I don't think God is bound by time. I don't even understand "bound by time", (in the case of God) and I hear it a lot. Would an example of that be God trying to get something done, but run out of time? I don't think that can happen to God. I'd like a description of God being bound by time. Bound suggests He could be hindered by time somehow. How?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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Vaquero45 said:
I don't think God is bound by time. I don't even understand "bound by time", (in the case of God) and I hear it a lot. Would an example of that be God trying to get something done, but run out of time? I don't think that can happen to God. I'd like a description of God being bound by time. Bound suggests He could be hindered by time somehow. How?
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Being bound by time implies that God cannot be existing in the future at the same moment when He is existing during the present time.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
intojoy said:
I should have guessed!
You know Arnold corrected his math on the 69 weeks equation SRA wrote about?

Let me know what you think of that sometime.
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I acknowledge that Anderson's calculations were not correct. However, there have been many who spotted his error before Arnold:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/sir-robert-anderson.htm

But I doubt if Arnold has the right dates. I know that the much praised book on this out of Dallas Theological Seminary (Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ by Harold Hoehner) got it wrong.
 
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