Theology Club: Is the Future Open?

[intojoy]

I really do not understand the point in regard to the subject of this thread which you are making.



Could you please be more specific?



Thanks!

Yes. You do.

Don't play dumb.

 

[intojoy]

Is the Future Open?

When the Messiah came, He was rejected , beaten, crucified.

Did this happen by accident? Or did God preplan this to happen?

Did God get caught off guard by this ? Or was the rejection pre planned?

Or did it go according to how God planned it to go?

Or did God fail in His first attempt at being the Messiah of Israel?

Foreknowledge does not mean to know in advance.

If God knows everything outside of time, then that means everything is known by Him in the present. God expects us to realize this. That's not news. Therefore, when God tells us that Yeshua's death burial and resurrection was "foreknown" God expects us to fathom that foreknowledge in God's world means preplanning.

End of threadski Chief ManyBottles

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If God knows everything outside of time, then that means everything is known by Him in the present. God expects us to realize this.

So you must agree what Loraine Boettner wrote here:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

Right?

 

[intojoy]

So you must agree what Loraine Boettner wrote here:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

Right?

No.

God's knowing is not adequately described by that paragraph.

Here's how it is; God knows all things past present and future simultaneously at the same time.

 

[Vaquero45]

God existed in the eternal state, where there is no before or after, but only an ever present now. And He remained in the eternal state even when He created the universe, and within that creation is four dimensions--height, width, depth and time.

Where/how did you learn this?

We cannot even imagine a state devoid of space, but that too is a part of the creation. Sir Robert Anderson wrote:

"One of the most popular systems of metaphysics is based upon the fact that certain of our ideas seem to spring from the essential constitution of the mind itself ; and these are not subject to our reason, but, on the contrary, they control it. A superficial thinker might suppose the powers of human imagination to be boundless. He can imagine the sun and moon and stars to disappear from the heavens, and the peopled earth to vanish from beneath his feet, leaving him a solitary unit in boundless space ; but let him try, pursuing still further his madman's dream, to grasp the thought of space itself being annihilated, and his mind, in obedience to some inexorable law, will refuse the conception altogether" (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publishing, 1978], 77).​

If space exists inside of God, one can fall back on the concept of "only God" existing, but that is still pretty crazy to try to draw a picture of. For some reason I don't trip over the concept of "no space" as badly as "no time", but still, where do we see God creating space?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here's how it is; God knows all things past present and future simultaneously at the same time.

If God knows all things which will happen in the future and since He cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.

And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?

Therefore, some argue that man really has no free will since all that will happen has already been determined.

Is that what you believe?

 

[Vaquero45]

No.

God's knowing is not adequately described by that paragraph.

Here's how it is; God knows all things past present and future simultaneously at the same time.

It seems to me that your statement agrees with the quote Jerry posted?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where/how did you learn this?

I learned that part of the creation is in regard to what is called "spacetime" by Einstein. And since it is an integral part of creation then it must be a created thing, something that did not even exist before God created the universe.

Plus, in my opinion, 2 Peter 3:8 indicates that God is not constrained by time so therefore He is outside of time.

If space exists inside of God

"Did you mean "If space exists OUTSIDE of God"?

 

[intojoy]

It seems to me that your statement agrees with the quote Jerry posted?

Sort of. The problem is that by adding the "God sees from NY to San Fran", Jerry's Stettin' somethin' up and I can't take that chance with him.
God does not see from the beginning of that road to the end. He sees it all simultaneously, there's a small difference. Chief MannyBottles is brewing up something. Something sinister.

 

[intojoy]

If God knows all things which will happen in the future and since He cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.



And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?



Therefore, some argue that man really has no free will since all that will happen has already been determined.



Is that what you believe?

Yes.

And because God saw everything He according to His omnipotence allowed for the fall of man. The fall of man would inevitably lead to the condemnation of all of humanity by imputation. This is why God is not blamed for the lost remaining lost even tho they are born lost. God did not create them for the purpose of condemning them, but God allowed for the fall to happen knowing that the majority of humanity would not be saved. He allowed the fall because He desired to keep you jerry. Isn't that great?

I think it is and I think you're a great guy, I love you son.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes.

And because God saw everything He according to His omnipotence allowed for the fall of man.

If the Lord Jesus knew that there was no possibility that he would be spared the agony of the Cross then why would He pray the following to the Father?:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

 

[intojoy]

If the Lord Jesus knew that there was no possibility that he would be spared the agony of the Cross then why would He pray the following to the Father?:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

Easy question. Got anything deeper/better?

Obviously Yeshua was limited in His bodily form.

This is seen even by satan when satan suggested that Yeshua throw Himself down and the angels would rescue Him. He was limited in His incarnate form and His body was subject to physical death.

Now, can God die? No. Then how did God die? God died in bodily form in the person of His Son. When God added humanity to His divine nature He did so choosing to subject the Son to the physical limitations of hunger, thirst and death. When Yeshua prayed Father let the cup pass from me, it was because he understood the physical pain he was about to endure.

Does God feel physical pain? No.
Did God feel physical pain? Yes.
How? He felt it when He chose to suffer our penalty on our behalf as a man.

 

[Vaquero45]

I learned that part of the creation is in regard to what is called "spacetime" by Einstein. And since it is an integral part of creation then it must be a created thing, something that did not even exist before God created the universe.

Plus, in my opinion, 2 Peter 3:8 indicates that God is not constrained by time so therefore He is outside of time.

Well I don't know what "spacetime" is so maybe there's the problem. Time is a measurement. It doesn't exist without events to measure between. It isn't a thing. Space, I'm not totally sure on. 2 Peter 3:8 merely says God is not slow, He is patient, the way I read it.

"Did you mean "If space exists OUTSIDE of God"?

No I did mean inside. If God is infinite, nothing is outside of him, including space, if space is indeed a thing. And therefore if space did not exist, There is still God. Probably would have been better for me to say "if space is a created thing" than to differentiate inside or outside of God, and as far as drawing a picture of "no space" goes it doesn't really make a difference. Might be more clear to think of space as "distance". I'm leaning more toward space not being a "thing" the more I think about it, but I'm starting to ramble now and will quit typing my thoughts out loud.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Easy question. Got anything deeper/better?

Obviously Yeshua was limited in His bodily form.

He was not so limited that he was unaware of the prophecies which foretold of His death.

So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father. He knew that it was indeed possible that the cup could be passed from Him if there was another way whereby redemption could be obtained, and that is why we see Him praying in the following way:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

The Lord Jesus didn't think it was impossible but you do.

 

[Delmar]

I have already quoted a verse which demonstrates that God is not bound by time.

.

You infer more from that verse than is clearly stated.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well I don't know what "spacetime" is so maybe there's the problem.

Perhaps it is. But let us look at what you said earlier and my response:

Here is Bob Enyart's take on it. I don't know what you think of his teaching but this is pretty straight forward and should be easy to shoot down if he is wrong about the Greek. From the little I've looked into it he seems to be correct.

Bad Translations: "Before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9 & Titus 1:2) is widely quoted yet in the Greek text of the New Testament there is no verb "began" in the original language. And the singular word "time" does not appear. Instead, Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from on the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.​

What can the words "before the times of the ages" mean if it is not referring to "before time began"?

Does not the word "ages" speak of time? Did time exist before the first age began? I cannot see how it could.

What interpretation would you put on those words?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You infer more from that verse than is clearly stated.

that is your opinion but I do not share your opinion, especially with the following verses in view:

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" (2 Tim.1:9).​

"in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus1:2).​

 

[intojoy]

He was not so limited that he was unaware of the prophecies which foretold of His death.



So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father. He knew that it was indeed possible that the cup could be passed from Him if there was another way whereby redemption could be obtained, and that is why we see Him praying in the following way:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

The Lord Jesus didn't think it was impossible but you do.

What the hell are you talking about?
If you are an open theist spit it out man.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What the hell are you talking about?

You know exactly what I am talking about.

If you are an open theist spit it out man.

I believe that the future is open but I do not agree with the teaching that those who are called "open theists."

The prayer of the Lord Jesus to the Father which I quoted proves that the future is open. He certainly did not believe that dying on the Cross was inevitable or settled.

 

[intojoy]

You know exactly what I am talking about.







I believe that the future is open but I do not agree with the teaching that those who are called "open theists."



The prayer of the Lord Jesus to the Father which I quoted proves that the future is open. He certainly did not believe that dying on the Cross was inevitable or settled.

It would've saved a lot of misunderstanding if you didn't hide this.