Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.

Saying that the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment is the same thing as denying that the wages of sin is death. The Bible says that the wicked will perish. Claiming that they will NOT perish, but will instead live forever in Hell being tormented alive forever is a direct contradiction of what the Bible actually says. John 3:16 sets out two distinct fates very clearly. One fate is to perish. The other fate is to have eternal life. The Bible is clear and consistent on this.

 

[Aimiel]

I have never denied that the wages of sin is death, but you deny that the result of death (for the lost) is: judgment. God judges and He is The One Who has decided to create hell for the devil and his angels and men decide that they would rather have hell than Heaven. God puts people where they belong. Eternal conscious torment is described as the end of those whom God judges, whether you ever realize that Truth or not.

 

[godrulz]

what is really interesting is that these people want hell to exist
they want others to suffer
is this what Christianity is all about?

We do not want others to suffer. This is why we preach the gospel as dying men to dying men with tears in our eyes. It is unloving to not warn people about eternal issues.

Tim, death is separation, not cessation. One can rot and perish in Siberia or jail. The semantic range of meaning of both words do not have to imply cessation. The picture in other passages shows that it is separation (conscious), not cessation.

 

[Timotheos]

According to the Bible, the lake of fire IS the second death. The Bible never once says that death is separation. Death, biblically, is the absence of life. In other words, Biblical death is the same thing as medical death. There is no secret "bible code" that we must use to read the Bible. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. This means the penalty for sin is actually death, real death. Not separation, which isn't death at all. The verse goes on to say that the gift of God is eternal life. If death is not the opposite of life, why does the verse contrast eternal life with death?

 

[Timotheos]

I have never denied that the wages of sin is death, but you deny that the result of death (for the lost) is: judgment. God judges and He is The One Who has decided to create hell for the devil and his angels and men decide that they would rather have hell than Heaven. God puts people where they belong. Eternal conscious torment is described as the end of those whom God judges, whether you ever realize that Truth or not.

According to the bible, the result of the judgment is death. The wages of sin is death. You deny this when you claim that the penalty for sin is NOT death, but eternal life being tormented in hell instead of death.

 

[Angel4Truth]

what is really interesting is that these people want hell to exist
they want others to suffer
is this what Christianity is all about?

Who wants others to suffer because hell exists?

Seems to me it would be much easier to come to Christ for salvation and then it would never be a concern, i mean He gave us His word so we would know it and how to avoid it and most of us here spend time teaching the truth the about it.

Maybe you think that is what He means when He says there will be no excuse before God?

If i say "hey i have this injection that will save your life, you may not like it at first and you may not like some of the side effects but you will be 100 percent cured" and the person says no way, no thanks, keep it, and if i suffer even worse of a death and beyond, then its your fault even though i am refusing what can cure me" would that make any sense to you or lay any blame at your feet?

 

[Timotheos]

Who wants others to suffer because hell exists?

Seems to me it would be much easier to come to Christ for salvation and then it would never be a concern, i mean He gave us His word so we would know it and how to avoid it and most of us here spend time teaching the truth the about it.

Maybe you think that is what He means when He says there will be no excuse before God?

If i say "hey i have this injection that will save your life, you may not like it at first and you may not like some of the side effects but you will be 100 percent cured" and the person says no way, no thanks, keep it, and if i suffer even worse of a death and beyond, then its your fault even though i am refusing what can cure me" would that make any sense to you or lay any blame at your feet?

The issue is "What does the Bible say is the wages of sin?" For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

If a doctor said I had a disease that would cause my death and he had a shot that would prevent my death, and I didn't get the shot, then the result would be my death. If the disease causes death, then it is wrong to say that the disease causes eternal conscious torment. Sin is like that disease. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.

 

[chrysostom]

Tim, death is separation, not cessation.

death is death

why do you have to redefine words to make your theology work?

 

[Timotheos]

I keep getting the message "You must spread some reputation around before giving it to chrysostom again."

Oh well. You know that I appreciate you.

 

[Aimiel]

According to the Bible, the lake of fire IS the second death. The Bible never once says that death is separation. Death, biblically, is the absence of life. In other words, Biblical death is the same thing as medical death. There is no secret "bible code" that we must use to read the Bible. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. This means the penalty for sin is actually death, real death.

Yes, but after this: the judgment. Are you ignoring that part or what?

The Lake of Fire is where demons and Satan himself will be tormented with flames for ever and ever. Why do you think that men who are thrown into it will be dead? Does that make you more comfortable? Don't you realize that if men were to be put to death God would just be wasting His time waking them from the dead, to judge them and put them back to death? Do you think that God is stupid? Do you think that makes any sense at all? :duh:

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, but after this: the judgment. Are you ignoring that part or what?

No, I am not ignoring the the Judgment. The result of the Judgment is either eternal life for those who are in Christ or the second death for those who are not in Christ. The second death is death, the second time. The lake of fire is the second death. People will not be tormented alive forever in the lake of fire because John told us exactly what he meant by the lake of fire when he said "The lake of fire is the second death."

The Lake of Fire is where demons and Satan himself will be tormented with flames for ever and ever.

According to the man who wrote Revelation, the lake of fire is the second death.

Why do you think that men who are thrown into it will be dead?

Because the Bible directly says that the lake of fire is the second death. The Bible directly says that the wages of sin is death, and the Bible directly and specifically says that the wicked perish and are no more.

Does that make you more comfortable?

No, but it doesn't really matter if it makes me more comfortable or not. The issue is "What does the Bible say?" And the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Why do you think that the wages of sin is not death, but eternal life in torment in hell instead of death? Does THAT make you more comfortable? Does that give you a little thrill?

Don't you realize that if men were to be put to death God would just be wasting His time waking them from the dead, to judge them and put them back to death?

That WOULD be true, IF God's justice WERE a waste of time. But God's justice is not a waste of time. God's word says that He will resurrect the wicked for judgement and that they will perish as a result of that judgment. If you don't like that, if you think that is a waste of time, tough luck. Apparently, God doesn't think that it is a waste of time.

Do you think that God is stupid?

No, and I never said that God is stupid. Do you think that God is stupid because He will resurrect the dead for judgment and then allow those who have not received eternal life to go to the second death?

Do you think that makes any sense at all?

Apparently, it doesn't make sense to you because you are unable to understand it. The wages of sin is death. It makes sense that those who have not had their sins forgiven will go to the second death after they are resurrected for judgment. If you are unable to understand this, that is your problem, not mine.

:duh:

I don't know what you mean by "duh". Are calling me stupid because you can't understand the Bible? Or are you saying "duh" because you are unable to understand the Bible? Or are you merely trying to be offensive?

I am trying to discuss what the Bible says in a reasonable manner. If you are not capable of decent behavior, please stop posting here.

 

[Timotheos]

It appears that there is a direct correlation between a person's belief in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell and their inability to act in a decent manner.

 

[Timotheos]

We only want to warn people about hell... if they profess Christianity they ought to know from reading their Bible that hell is real. The torment is eternal. It's not made up.

According to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell. You ought to know that from reading your Bible which says "For the wages of sin is death". If you want to warn people, warn people that they are going to die but they can have eternal life in Christ if they are willing to receive eternal life from Christ.

Don't try to scare them with made up stories about a make believe land where they will live forever being tortured by God or His torturers. The Bible doesn't say "For the wages of sin is to be tortured forever in Never Never Land with Captain Hook and Tinkerbell." The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. It's too bad that you are unwilling to believe the Bible on this issue. I have to wonder, is there someone that you wish will be tormented alive forever? Is that why you are unwilling to give up the lie of ECT in Hell?

 

[Krsto]

We do not want others to suffer. This is why we preach the gospel as dying men to dying men with tears in our eyes. It is unloving to not warn people about eternal issues.

Tim, death is separation, not cessation. One can rot and perish in Siberia or jail. The semantic range of meaning of both words do not have to imply cessation. The picture in other passages shows that it is separation (conscious), not cessation.

What are those passages?

 

[Krsto]

According to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell. You ought to know that from reading your Bible which says "For the wages of sin is death". If you want to warn people, warn people that they are going to die but they can have eternal life in Christ if they are willing to receive eternal life from Christ.

Don't try to scare them with made up stories about a make believe land where they will live forever being tortured by God or His torturers. The Bible doesn't say "For the wages of sin is to be tortured forever in Never Never Land with Captain Hook and Tinkerbell." The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. It's too bad that you are unwilling to believe the Bible on this issue. I have to wonder, is there someone that you wish will be tormented alive forever? Is that why you are unwilling to give up the lie of ECT in Hell?

Aimiel is a prophet of God. He gets his doctrine straight from the source. Like many Catholics who think their church gets its doctrine straight from the source, there isn't much use in discussing theology with him. He is right and you are wrong. It can be no other way.

 

[Krsto]

The Bible ALSO says that after death comes judgment. Why should God awaken the dead to merely make them dead again? Makes no sense to me. He awakens them to put them where The Righteous Judge of The Universe has decided they need to go: eternal conscious torment. That IS what is stated in Scripture. Denying that is simply being disingenuous.

It makes more sense to you that God would create (through the natural reproductive method he invented) people just so billions of them can suffer forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever and ever, and ever - with no end?

If you think the one makes sense and the other doesn't you sure have some perverted sensibilities.

 

[godrulz]

death is death

why do you have to redefine words to make your theology work?

I want a biblical, theological understanding of a word, not one that fits secular culture/evolution.

There is physical, spiritual, eternal death. They are not identical. A case can be made that death is separation, not cessation (we must at least qualify it).

The nature of the spirit-soul, nature of hell, etc. must also be biblical, not popular error or false teaching.

 

[Timotheos]

It makes more sense to you that God would create (through the natural reproductive method he invented) people just so billions of them can suffer forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever and ever, and ever - with no end?

If you think the one makes sense and the other doesn't you sure have some perverted sensibilities.

Good point.

Why isn't the question ever asked, "Why would God send people to Hell when they die for eternal torment forever, THEN resurrect them for judgment (Notice that they were not judged before the first round of torture!) And then send them BACK to Hell for a SECOND ROUND of eternal conscious torment?" But the people who believe that God does this think it is stupid that God would resurrect the dead for judgment and then apply that judgment. Either eternal life or death.

 

[Timotheos]

I want a biblical, theological understanding of a word, not one that fits secular culture/evolution.

There is physical, spiritual, eternal death. They are not identical. A case can be made that death is separation, not cessation (we must at least qualify it).

The nature of the spirit-soul, nature of hell, etc. must also be biblical, not popular error or false teaching.

If you want a biblical theological understanding of the word death, why don't you show the Bible verse that says "Death is separation and not really death"?

 

[Aimiel]

Aimiel is a prophet of God. He gets his doctrine straight from the source. Like many Catholics who think their church gets its doctrine straight from the source, there isn't much use in discussing theology with him. He is right and you are wrong. It can be no other way.

Liar. I get my doctrine from reading, praying and meditating His Word day and night. The gifts that God gives His prophets are not any 'private interpretation' of the scriptures, any more than they are of His Prophecies. He wants everyone to prophesy. He loves giving good gifts to His children. I do not think of myself as being any more or less than anyone else. I believe I'm worth many sparrows just like the next guy.