Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Krsto]

We can know from just one single verse of The Holy Scriptures that being put out of existence isn't what the Lake of Fire is for.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Being out of existence would not ever mean that one has their part in the Lake of Fire. You have to be there to have your part in something. Those sent to the Lake of Fire have their part in torment for ever and ever.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Smoke rises from an incinerator forever only because the incinerator is continually fed with fuel and things are continually being placed in it to "have their place" in it. That doesn't mean each thing placed in it burns forever. That would defeat the purpose of an incinerator, don't you think.

 

[freelight]

Love without end......

Love without end......

Smoke rises from an incinerator forever only because the incinerator is continually fed with fuel and things are continually being placed in it to "have their place" in it. That doesn't mean each thing placed in it burns forever. That would defeat the purpose of an incinerator, don't you think.

Lets not forget all the 'figurative' language here and the versatility of 'interpretation' within this particular book. Fire has both a 'incinerating' and 'purifying' effect, so a 'lake of fire' could portray both aspects of 'consuming' that which enters into its sphere. Its wonderful to consider God's love as a consuming fire. This fire by nature only destroys what is subject to death, while all else is further vivified, renewed and revived in the pure energy of Spirit.

Again, we remind our readers to contemplate the Love that is eternal, .......Love's will.



pj

 

[Pierac]

If punishment is not everlasting, then grammatically, neither is life.

Exactly!

1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Do you really believe you possesses some immortality by just being born? :think:

You were not created immortal... You must be raised from the dead... on the last day!

Joh 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Joh 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Joh 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.


What... You actually thought you were immortal and in of no need of a resurrection on the last day? Your confusing everlasting with the ages... :think:

Phi 4:20 and to God, even our Father, is the glory--to the ages of the ages. Amen.

1Ti 1:17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory--to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Mat 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.




:rotfl:
Paul

 

[godrulz]

 

[Timotheos]

Exactly!

1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Do you really believe you possesses some immortality by just being born? :think:

You were not created immortal... You must be raised from the dead... on the last day!

Joh 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Joh 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Joh 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.


What... You actually thought you were immortal and in of no need of a resurrection on the last day? Your confusing everlasting with the ages... :think:

Phi 4:20 and to God, even our Father, is the glory--to the ages of the ages. Amen.

1Ti 1:17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory--to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Mat 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.




:rotfl:
Paul

Exactly. Only God is immortal in Himself.
People are not immortal unless they receive immortality as a gift from God. "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12. The children of God are immortal, those who reject him are not immortal.
For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord. Romans 6:23

Whoever believes in him may have eternal life. John 3:15
If whoever believes in him has eternal life, then people do not automatically have eternal life.

John 3:16 says "“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Whosoever believes in him will not PERISH (the others do perish) but will have eternal life (the others do not have eternal life).

 

[chrysostom]

good job tim

 

[Timotheos]

good job tim

Thanks,
The scriptures are true.

 

[Aimiel]

The scriptures are true.

Even this one?

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I agree, The Holy Scriptures are true: men WILL be tormented day and night for ever and ever, if they are not saved.

 

[Krsto]

Even this one?

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I agree, The Holy Scriptures are true: men WILL be tormented day and night for ever and ever, if they are not saved.

There is nothing in that passage in revelation that says any person will be tormented forever. It only says the smoke of their torment rises forever. Apparently you are unwilling to recognize such a distinction.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

There is nothing in that passage in revelation that says any person will be tormented forever. It only says the smoke of their torment rises forever. Apparently you are unwilling to recognize such a distinction.

Smoke settles after the fire is put out dude. Smoke continues to rise up because the fire is going strong.

Apparently you are unwilling to employ common sense.

 

[TruthSetsFree]

Thanks Tomlapalm,


Also, I'm not sure that I agree that Spiritual death is torment. l?

haven't u ever committed an egregious sin against God?

but all sin is egregious with an absolutely holy, all loving God...

spriitual death is the feeling we have after committing some terrible act that we know God does not approve... that greives the Holy Spirit

 

[Aimiel]

There is nothing in that passage in revelation that says any person will be tormented forever. It only says the smoke of their torment rises forever. Apparently you are unwilling to recognize such a distinction.

Either we're not reading the same verse or your understanding of the English language is different from mine... smoke rising from torment for ever and ever means just what it says. It doesn't say that torment ever ceases and there is no way you can infer that from Scripture. You aren't reading The Scriptures, you're re-interpreting them to fulfill your own theology.

 

[Aimiel]

Smoke settles after the fire is put out dude. Smoke continues to rise up because the fire is going strong.

Apparently you are unwilling to employ common sense.

:thumb:

(You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Wile E. Coyote again.) =(

 

[godrulz]

Either we're not reading the same verse or your understanding of the English language is different from mine... smoke rising from torment for ever and ever means just what it says. It doesn't say that torment ever ceases and there is no way you can infer that from Scripture. You aren't reading The Scriptures, you're re-interpreting them to fulfill your own theology.

It also says that they (those thrown there) will be tormented day and night forever and ever. It is not just smoke burning, but people in the place (whatever it entails).

 

[Timotheos]

haven't u ever committed an egregious sin against God?

but all sin is egregious with an absolutely holy, all loving God...

spriitual death is the feeling we have after committing some terrible act that we know God does not approve... that greives the Holy Spirit

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Anyone who commits an egregious sin against God has an obligation to God, they are under a death penalty. According to the Bible, everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But also according to the Bible, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So we no longer owe the penalty for sin, which is death. If we now longer owe the wages of sin, when we are resurrected, we will have eternal life. There will be no more death. According to the Bible, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[chrysostom]

what is really interesting is that these people want hell to exist
they want others to suffer
is this what Christianity is all about?

 

[Aimiel]

We only want to warn people about hell... if they profess Christianity they ought to know from reading their Bible that hell is real. The torment is eternal. It's not made up.

 

[Timotheos]

what is really interesting is that these people want hell to exist
they want others to suffer
is this what Christianity is all about?

I think people just want to maintain the status quo. They were brought up to believe that the Bible says there is a hell of eternal torment, so in their minds, anyone who says that the wages of sin is really death is contradicting the Bible. Never mind that the Bible says straight out that the wages of sin is death. Change is frightening for some people. Believing that God has planned eternal torment for some people (always the OTHER people) is less frightening than changing one's belief to match what the Bible actually says. In addition, if they change their POV of Hell, they lose the community they are currently part of.

 

[Timotheos]

But I have noticed a general lack of common courtesy on the part of people who believe in ECT. Here's an example:

Apparently you are unwilling to employ common sense.

 

[Aimiel]

The Bible ALSO says that after death comes judgment. Why should God awaken the dead to merely make them dead again? Makes no sense to me. He awakens them to put them where The Righteous Judge of The Universe has decided they need to go: eternal conscious torment. That IS what is stated in Scripture. Denying that is simply being disingenuous.