Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Aimiel]

One other thing- if we accept the traditional translation that says it is appointed unto men to die once and after this the judgement, there are a lot of exceptions to be made. Like Enoch and Elijah, who were taken up without dying.

Not if we take into account the fact that they will come back to earth so that they can be martyred:

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

And all of those that the bible records as having been miraculously raised from the dead. Are these people still alive today? If not then they died once (before being miraculously raised back to life), and then died again later on.

Sorry, but Jesus promised:

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

The idea of "if 'eternal life' means "forever" then the same must hold true for "death", is based on a wrong assumption that the Greek word normally translated as "eternal or forever" actually means that. It doesn't. It means "age". Aionian life is the "life pertaining to the Messianic age". Most believers panic at the thought and say that if the word "aionian" does not mean "forever" this means believers will not live forever. They forget that at the end of the age that "aionian life" refers to, death will have been abolished and done away with. Swallowed up by life.

Those who take part in the Second Death will wish that they were no more.

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Being drowned in water would be nothing compared to ECT.

 

[freelight]

Life has a will to live on.......

Life has a will to live on.......

You do not understand the holiness of God, sinfulness and free will of man, risk nature of providence, etc.:wave2:

You're still stuck with a 'god' confined to your own theological conceptions, who violates the cosmic laws of justice and love by condemning souls to eternal suffering and torment to no end. What is worse is assuming that such 'insanity' is actually a just trait of said 'god'.

Consciousness is inherent to Life itself, so that as long as a soul is conscious...it cannot ever be entirely seperate from 'God' its source. Also the nature of Love retains is eternal will.

What is mortal may die or disintegrate, while what is immortal lives on in some form, being of the divine nature. How the mortal merges with the immortal or "puts on" immortality varies in different schools of thought.



pj

 

[freelight]

word

word

Originally Posted by freelight
I don't believe The Holy Bible. (Paraphrased)

I did NOT say what you propose above. That's your 'interpretaton'.

Thank you for being honest. Jesus said that He is The One and Only Way, Truth and Life. Not believing Him, you're liable to believe anything, which is what you do. You've swallowed a lie because you don't place your faith in the only Truth there is: The Word of God.

My honesty doesnt permit me to believe in the insane concept of ECT as traditionally assumed, but allows me to consider more rational posssibilities and other schools of knowledge that have researched and studied the subject. The Bible is not perfect.


pj

 

[godrulz]

The body returning to dust is physical death where the shell of the body is useless and decays. This does not preclude a continued existence of spirit-soul without body in intermediate state until final physical resurrection.

Physical death is separation of spirit-soul from body (immaterial/material). It is not cessation of the real person, but the temporary shell.

Spiritual death (person is alive) is separation of sinner from holy God relationally on earth.

Eternal/second death is separation of person eternally from God, again still alive.

 

[Aimiel]

I did NOT say what you propose above. That's your 'interpretaton'.

One doesn't have to interpret anything to understand that what you say cannot be said by someone who believes The Word of God.

My honesty doesnt permit me to believe in the insane concept of ECT as traditionally assumed, but allows me to consider more rational posssibilities and other schools of knowledge that have researched and studied the subject. The Bible is not perfect.

A whole lot of kooks (many of whom were far greater scholars than yourself) down through the centuries have said the same thing and still: not one single one, including yourself, have ever found one single mistake in The Holy Bible's history, theology or science. Please remember: those who believe that The Bible is inspired know that it IS The Word of God. He doesn't make mistakes.

 

[Omniskeptical]

The body returning to dust is physical death where the shell of the body is useless and decays. This does not preclude a continued existence of spirit-soul without body in intermediate state until final physical resurrection...

Yes it does. The spirit cannot exist without body without God's help.

 

[BigBoof1959]

Aimiel wrote -

Not if we take into account the fact that they will come back to earth so that they can be martyred:

Perhaps the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, in which case they would not be exceptions. The text doesn't say who these two witnesses are, so there is no way to tell.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

How would you define the "death" implied by Hebrews 9:27 when it says "it is appointed to those men once to die..."? Most people who take this verse to be making a statement about all men would say this is talking about physical death. Once you die, the next step is THE judgement. If that is really what this verse refers to, then there are plenty of people mentioned in the bible who died, were raised back to life and then died again later on (unless you think maybe they are walking around somewhere in the middle east today?). So these people died twice. Another group that would have to be considered an exception to the traditional interpretation of Hebrews 9:27 would be those who do not "sleep" mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:51 and those believers who are "alive and remain" at the coming of the LORD in 1 Thess. 4:15.

And there is still the question of why translators leave out the article in the first part of Hebrews 9:27 and insert one in the last part.

Those who take part in the Second Death will wish that they were no more.

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Being drowned in water would be nothing compared to ECT.

Regardless of what people wish, or what comparisons you want to use to describe them, the judgements of God have correction as their focus, not revenge. And they are not eternal, but accomplish their goal. Andrew Juke's book "The Second Death and The Restitution of All Things" is a good book explaining that God does not save us from death, He saves us through death. You can find this book available to read online at tentmaker.org in the "scholar's corner". At the bottom of the home page there is a list of sections to the site. The scholar's corner is in the middle part of the third line down. There are also a lot of other interesting books to be found here that question the validity of ECT. Most of them are long reads that go into a lot of detail, but they are worth the time.

 

[Aimiel]

Perhaps the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, in which case they would not be exceptions. The text doesn't say who these two witnesses are, so there is no way to tell.

I believe it's painfully obvious.

How would you define the "death" implied by Hebrews 9:27 when it says "it is appointed to those men once to die..."?

By the fact that the lost face death without a Comforter. It won't be pretty. Our death isn't the same. We don't go into Death, we pass through the Valley of The Shadow of Death, where Death has no hold on us. Have you ever heard of the shadow of a dog biting anyone?

Regardless of what people wish, or what comparisons you want to use to describe them, the judgements of God have correction as their focus, not revenge. And they are not eternal, but accomplish their goal. Andrew Juke's book "The Second Death and The Restitution of All Things" is a good book explaining that God does not save us from death, He saves us through death.

There's one one 'good book' and It is The One that I believe. It says we won't die. I believe Jesus.

There are also a lot of other interesting books to be found here that question the validity of ECT. Most of them are long reads that go into a lot of detail, but they are worth the time.

I like reading The Bible for clarity on such matters (related to The Kingdom). Others are mostly guesswork.

 

[BigBoof1959]

I believe it's painfully obvious.

Just what makes it so painfully obvious? What is written of these two witnesses in the Revelation? Or your desire to put them into this role?

By the fact that the lost face death without a Comforter. It won't be pretty. Our death isn't the same. We don't go into Death, we pass through the Valley of The Shadow of Death, where Death has no hold on us. Have you ever heard of the shadow of a dog biting anyone?

You are not addressing the point of my question. Is Hebrews 9:27 referring to all men dying physically or not? If it is, then there are a lot of people mentioned in the bible who physically died, were raised to life by a miraculous work of God, and it is assumed that these same people physically died again later on. Jesus plainly said "Lazarus is dead." He then raised back to life. Is Lazarus still walking the planet? John 21:23 makes it a point to be clear that Jesus didn't say that the Apostle John, who was definitely a believer, would not die. History tells us he did. Do you want us to believe that the phrase "And as it is appointed unto men once to die" in Hebrews 9:27 is referring to two different things depending on whether one is a believer or not?

I am aware of the fact that the bible uses the word "death" in different ways. What I am trying to point out is the fact that the traditional interpretation of Hebrews 9:27 says that this verse is referring to the physical death that is appointed unto mankind. According to this interpretation, there is no distinction made in the verse between believers and non-believers. They justify leaving out the Greek article τοῖς , which is generally translated as "those" by saying that τοῖς ἀνθρώποις means "those of the species known as mankind or human". A lot of commentators freely acknowledge that exceptions have to be made in order to hold this view. I wish they would also acknowledge the fact that seeing it this way involves a sudden break from the preceding and following contexts of comparing the ministries of the Aaronic and Levitical ministers with that of Jesus. And the fact that there is no article in front of the word "judgement" in the last part of the verse.

There's one one 'good book' and It is The One that I believe. It says we won't die. I believe Jesus.I like reading The Bible for clarity on such matters (related to The Kingdom). Others are mostly guesswork.

The bible, particularly when read in a translation, is not as full of clarity as you say. Paul said "we see in a mirror dimly". The greek word which is translated "dimly" is αἰνίγματι , which is where we get our English word"enigma". Sounds real clear, doesn't it? And he said this to people who were being taught in the language they grew up speaking. Same thing applies when Paul warned the Ephesian elders, (who also spoke the language that the new testament was written in) about false teachers twisting the truth and leading people away after themselves. How much more do we need to be on guard for those who would twist the truth when translating? Especially when the translations are "officially" sanctioned by people with political power in an unstable environment.

 

[Aimiel]

Just what makes it so painfully obvious?

The simple fact that it is appointed unto men to die coupled with the fact that they are the only two men known to have never yet done so.

You are not addressing the point of my question. Is Hebrews 9:27 referring to all men dying physically or not? If it is, then there are a lot of people mentioned in the bible who physically died, were raised to life by a miraculous work of God, and it is assumed that these same people physically died again later on.

I don't believe that they faced a second death or that they will take part in the Second Death of ECT.

Jesus plainly said "Lazarus is dead." He then raised back to life. Is Lazarus still walking the planet? John 21:23 makes it a point to be clear that Jesus didn't say that the Apostle John, who was definitely a believer, would not die. History tells us he did. Do you want us to believe that the phrase "And as it is appointed unto men once to die" in Hebrews 9:27 is referring to two different things depending on whether one is a believer or not?

As you point out below, we have an enigma. It's not something that we are left in the dark about, but it is designed to be controversial for a reason: God wants us to contemplate the good things He has prepared for them that love Him. He wants those who are called according to His Purposes to rest assured that He is working all things together for our good (in His Plan and Design). He knows far better than us, since He designed and created this entire universe.

The bible, particularly when read in a translation, is not as full of clarity as you say. Paul said "we see in a mirror dimly". The greek word which is translated "dimly" is αἰνίγματι , which is where we get our English word"enigma". Sounds real clear, doesn't it? And he said this to people who were being taught in the language they grew up speaking. Same thing applies when Paul warned the Ephesian elders, (who also spoke the language that the new testament was written in) about false teachers twisting the truth and leading people away after themselves. How much more do we need to be on guard for those who would twist the truth when translating? Especially when the translations are "officially" sanctioned by people with political power in an unstable environment.

Environment aside, God's Word brings controversy to men. Put two people in one room with a Bible and you have an argument. We don't just talk about our God, we love to talk about our God and our beliefs and convictions which are the result of loving Him and having Him inside of us. Every single one of us has a different story and every single one of us has a different perspective of God. It isn't that we are seeing God differently, it is that we are seeing different facets of Him. We see Him 'dimly' as Scripture says, but we still see Him. That's what our focus is: Him. If the thoughts and intents of our hearts are continually towards Him, approaching Him, becoming closer to Him and desiring Him more and more every day, that is enough. He looks at us in this way. We look at Him by what we can hold onto in our minds. With a fallen mind, it is impossible to see Him. We need to have The Mind of Christ, which is only available to men of faith. We can see Him best with our spirit, but our mind is not in clear communication with our spirit, since our flesh and our desires and the cares of this life interfere with that communication. We need Him, in order to have any meaning or purpose. Without Him we are destitute. Knowing these things is what keeps us humble. It gives us the understanding to have compassion on any man and to walk in love towards every man. This, to me, is what it means to be Christian: love every single human; preach The Kingdom to them; bring them into God's fellowship. That is where it's at.

 

[Zeke]

You do not understand the holiness of God, sinfulness and free will of man, risk nature of providence, etc.:wave2:

But you do, You understand just like any other religious minded person who thinks thay have found the only way that is right and exceptable even if its irrational and unexceptable to even mans standerds, plus the verses that show your doctine to be questionable you disregard like a unwanted stepchild.

Your a worshipper of the letter with no compassion for those who don't fall under your doctrinal guidelines for Gods way of doing things, you may think you have mastered Gods ways but your heart shows your along way off still Romans 11:32-35.

You should gas those kids while their still to young to be punished for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever...............

 

[Aimiel]

I pray that I'm not religious-minded, but Christ-minded. I'm here to learn. If I have anything in me that is error, please show me. I want to ALWAYS do The Will of my Father.

 

[freelight]

reminders............

reminders............

Spiritual death (person is alive) is separation of sinner from holy God relationally on earth.

It could be argued that a spiritually 'dead' state can be the condition of any soul-spirit in any dimension of existence, here or in the hereafter. But as we've mentioned previously,...alot depends on how one defines "death" which is a pivotal point in the debate here.

Eternal/second death is separation of person eternally from God, again still alive.

Again, this is debatable, as the 'second death' can also be taken to mean the complete de-struction or dis-integration of a particular soul, it forfeiting forever its life-potential, being terminated, erased, expunged from conscious existence. This 'death' is final, complete and eternal. So the 'soul-death' theory is still one alternative view or conclusion about the 'second death' event.

What you still need to provide is proof that a soul can stay forever alive (conscious) and be eternally seperated from 'God', as if in a state of dislocated oblivion from God's presence, like a 'zombie' of some kind, and stay this way for all eternity, doomed forever in a state of 'void', 'nothingness', forever lost, all hope GONE. Apparently these souls suffer a 'death' of some kind, but are still conscious, aware of their existence....but have no perception or knowledge of 'God' whatsoever.

Apart from traditional notions of souls burning forever in a lake of fire,...this scenario is the epitome of gloom, where these souls are like wraiths, empty shells, vacant of any spark of light or love,....mere phantoms, yet somehow kept alive by God, without God being able to help them, having no 'response-ability', no ability to repent or call on God. These are just a few problems with ECT, with its speculations and assumptions.

A more liberal spiritualist-universalist view has all souls eventually/ultimately reuniting with Source, as the omnipresence of God's Love is the one underlying reality, the only true substance and will that upholds all. In this view,....the supreme will of Life itself, ultimately triumphs because it is the sole Power and Presence. In this view, God is already All That Is. 'God' is the sole reality prevailing everywhere, because there is nowhere that God is not. There is no life, being or consciousness seperate from 'God' ever...because 'God' is their source.



pj

 

[Letsargue]

I pray that I'm not religious-minded, but Christ-minded. I'm here to learn. If I have anything in me that is error, please show me. I want to ALWAYS do The Will of my Father.

Now you know, and I know, you don't mean that!! -- As soon as a voice attempts to correct you, you'll anger as do all the rest of these in your place. it's the nature of the place you are.

Paul -- 032713

 

[Timotheos]

The Bible says that, "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment," but teaching that death is the end of sinners isn't wholly Scriptural. You have to teach also about ECT, because The Bible does.

Please provide the chapter and verse supporting your belief.

The second death is the end for sinners. The Bible says "The wicked will perish" and "The wicked will be no more". Psalm 37:10 and 20. This directly supports what I am saying and specifically and directly contradicts your belief that sinners will continue to exist forever being tormented in hell.

You have to teach that the wicked will be no more, because the Bible does.

 

[freelight]

reminding Love.......

reminding Love.......

~*~*~


Carrying on from my previous sharings here, we would again remind ourselves of Love's will and nature. As long as Love IS....and a soul is conscious and able to respond to Love...there is always hope for salvation. A soul's very existence and sentience is....because 'God' IS. In the light of God's omnipresence and omniscience...there is only the Light of all-knowing LOVE. - this love does not impose ECT, but learning, rehabilitation, restoration, enlightenment, edification, reformation, transformation. Such is Love's nature as the very divine principle within Being, the law behind life and its progressive evolution. Such is the purpose of creation.



pj

 

[godrulz]

Please provide the chapter and verse supporting your belief.

The second death is the end for sinners. The Bible says "The wicked will perish" and "The wicked will be no more". Psalm 37:10 and 20. This directly supports what I am saying and specifically and directly contradicts your belief that sinners will continue to exist forever being tormented in hell.

You have to teach that the wicked will be no more, because the Bible does.

A poetic passage that reflects on the dead not being in the land of the living on earth anymore does not negate NT didactic ones that give revelation of ECT (your pejorative term).

 

[Timotheos]

A poetic passage that reflects on the dead not being in the land of the living on earth anymore does not negate NT didactic ones that give revelation of ECT (your pejorative term).

What should I call the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment? It's descriptive, not pejorative. If you have a better term for your doctrine, I'll happily use it.

If you don't believe Psalms, how about John 3:16? The choices there are to perish or to have eternal life. This agrees with Psalm 37. Or how about Matthew 7:13? The choices there are destruction or life. How about Matthew 10:28? Both body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna. How about Romans 6:23? The wages of sin is death. These passages are all didactic, and they give revelation of the destruction of the wicked. Don't these didactic passages count for anything?

But you claim that there are didactic passages that give revelation of eternal conscious torment in the New Testament that are not poetic passages. Please show me where to find them, and also please address the passages that I've shown you. There are many more than just what I've given you here.

Why don't you simply read through the New Testament with this question in mind: "Does this say that the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tormented forever, or does this say the wicked perish?".

 

[not4sure]

What should I call the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment? It's descriptive, not pejorative. If you have a better term for your doctrine, I'll happily use it.

You told me that too and I suggested...

I am fine with "eternal punishment view." Punishment implies justice, torment often is not motivated by justice.

:sigh:

 

[Timotheos]

You told me that too and I suggested...



:sigh:

You and I both believe in eternal punishment. You and I disagree that the punishment consists of torment. Therefore ECT is a better descriptor than ECP. Nobody knows what ECP is anyway, so if I use that term it would just add more confusion. Confusion is what led to the wide spread belief in ECT in the first place.