why don't you put brackets around [your point] so we don't miss it?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
why don't you put brackets around [your point] so we don't miss it?
God is life. If a person is separated from God, then they are separated from life. They are not alive forever in the lake of fire being tormented alive forever. You are trying to make God say something he never said.
Death is not "separation from God being tormented alive forever in Hell". Take it or leave it. God's word says that the wages of sin is death, Take it or leave it. Stop arguing against God's words.
Rather than trying to sell this smelly baloney, why don't you simply quote the Bible verse that says "Death is separation".
Letsargue
New member
Letsargue
New member
God's not the Liar!! - To look at it in the other direction; - where did Enoch go when he “Was Not”?? --- If life is for ever, so then is “DEATH” for ever!!!! - They are exact unequals.
Paul – 032312
Paul -- 032313
If eternal life is forever, then death is also forever. Not having life forever. You are making MY point for me, if you are arguing that "death" means "eternal life being tortured in hell", you aren't making any sense. Death is forever, it is the eternal punishment. Being dead forever is the punishment for sin. The wages of sin is death. If you think that death is separation, then just show the verse that says "death is separation". If you can't, then biblical death is NOT separation, biblical death is the end of a person's life. And I never said that "God is the liar". You are claiming that God said something, but you REFUSE to tell me the verse where God said it. God never ever ever ever said "Death is separation".
Just stop. You don't have scriptural support for your position, unless you can show the scripture that says "death is separation". The Bible never says that, so just stop.
Letsargue
New member
2 Corinthians 6:17 KJV – 17- “Wherefore ( Come out from among them ), and (( Be ye “SEPARATE” )), saith the Lord, and ( touch not the unclean thing ); and ( I will receive you )”. ------///--- ( That is (( Dying )) to sin and to the world of fools. “Dead” to the Old Law also!! -- That is the “Death” with Jesus on the Cross. The fool will for ever be dead ( in sin ) if rejecting the Gospel, the POWER of God unto “Salvation”. - That Death is Eternal also; - you will never live again in any way, but dead to the Life of Christ and God, dead to Eternal Life!!!!!! – Dead for ever in the Second Death. ---&--- Luke 16:22-23 KJV -----///--- Now what???
Paul – 032312
If you don't have any scripture that says "death is separation", you can just say so.
Principle, not proof text.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Principle defended.......
Principle defended.......
Again, as we've covered.....it becomes an issue of how one defines 'death',....but we've already seen the insanity of ECT, as something a just moral God would not enforce, condemning souls to an eternity of hopeleness...leaving them without hope, salvation or relief of any kind. Such a depraved, unjust and immoral depiction of 'God' is unsatisfactory.
'Death' at this point is just a 'concept' still, and the 'merry-go-round' swivels around each person's assumption of a 'biblical' definition. It doesn't leave anyone in any more of a right position, but only a 'position' they have chosen to 'assume'. Such 'settling' doesnt really 'settle' the problem, to which response there is 'speculation' and perhaps an unadmitted ignorance.
'Proof texts' dont prove anything either. As far as 'principle' goes,....one can assume 'death' is some kind of seperation from 'God', or that a conscious being can be 'deadened' as far as psychic/spiritual perceptions go, but thats just one point of view. One can look at a person, and say they are 'dead to God', just a shallow shell of darkness, gloom, depression, misery, insanity, oblivion...but they are still somehow living and conscious. They would be like zombies....the living dead.
- at which point many would feel its better to just END the lives of these persons, which would end a purposeless/hopeless existence.
Remember, no matter your view of 'death', or definition.....Infinite LOVE is greater still. That Love is ever-availing in its will and power to do as Love does,...and that is to save, encourage, empower, inspire, lift, heal, restore, and make whole again. Justice is always tempered with mercy, and Love and Wisdom always govern the principles that guide souls to their ultimate destinies.
pj
Principle defended.......
Again, as we've covered.....it becomes an issue of how one defines 'death',....but we've already seen the insanity of ECT, as something a just moral God would not enforce, condemning souls to an eternity of hopeleness...leaving them without hope, salvation or relief of any kind. Such a depraved, unjust and immoral depiction of 'God' is unsatisfactory.
'Death' at this point is just a 'concept' still, and the 'merry-go-round' swivels around each person's assumption of a 'biblical' definition. It doesn't leave anyone in any more of a right position, but only a 'position' they have chosen to 'assume'. Such 'settling' doesnt really 'settle' the problem, to which response there is 'speculation' and perhaps an unadmitted ignorance.
'Proof texts' dont prove anything either. As far as 'principle' goes,....one can assume 'death' is some kind of seperation from 'God', or that a conscious being can be 'deadened' as far as psychic/spiritual perceptions go, but thats just one point of view. One can look at a person, and say they are 'dead to God', just a shallow shell of darkness, gloom, depression, misery, insanity, oblivion...but they are still somehow living and conscious. They would be like zombies....the living dead.
- at which point many would feel its better to just END the lives of these persons, which would end a purposeless/hopeless existence.Remember, no matter your view of 'death', or definition.....Infinite LOVE is greater still. That Love is ever-availing in its will and power to do as Love does,...and that is to save, encourage, empower, inspire, lift, heal, restore, and make whole again. Justice is always tempered with mercy, and Love and Wisdom always govern the principles that guide souls to their ultimate destinies.
pj
Aimiel
Well-known member
Obviously, God is moral and just: being The Source of All Goodness. Also, quite obviously, He is The One Who created hell for the devil and his angels. He also decided this is to be the fate of men who aren't washed in The Blood of His Son.
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is most obvious from Freelight's post is that he simply doesn't believe The Holy Bible.
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is most obvious from Freelight's post is that he simply doesn't believe The Holy Bible.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
as long as one CAN call upon God...there is hope.....
as long as one CAN call upon God...there is hope.....
Correct on this point, I dont believe ANY writing if it violates reason, sanity, logic and the universal principles of goodness, justice, mercy, wisdom, etc. I've covered the 'principles' involved that I propose, in which the concept of ECT stands wanting and deficient. These are obvious for those willing to study the subject further. A 'blind faith' approach or literal rendering of any given text must be thoroughly examined intellingently.
The Bible does not contain all the info. or revelation upon the matter of souls or a description of the Afterlife, to which other ancient and modern day sources and research can enlighten us upon. Your definition of 'death' may as good as any other, or more or less invalid.
As long as a soul is conscious, alive and responsive to love or truth, the path to eternal life, immortality and progress is available to that soul, because LOVE affords such.
pj
as long as one CAN call upon God...there is hope.....
Correct on this point, I dont believe ANY writing if it violates reason, sanity, logic and the universal principles of goodness, justice, mercy, wisdom, etc. I've covered the 'principles' involved that I propose, in which the concept of ECT stands wanting and deficient. These are obvious for those willing to study the subject further. A 'blind faith' approach or literal rendering of any given text must be thoroughly examined intellingently.
The Bible does not contain all the info. or revelation upon the matter of souls or a description of the Afterlife, to which other ancient and modern day sources and research can enlighten us upon. Your definition of 'death' may as good as any other, or more or less invalid.
As long as a soul is conscious, alive and responsive to love or truth, the path to eternal life, immortality and progress is available to that soul, because LOVE affords such.
pj
Zeke
Well-known member
And we know God never leaves a way out for those who are bilinded for his purpose, the soveriegn will of God is that none perish and that overides any law, God can show mercy to all if its His will to do so.
This was clearly done when the disciples dropped their cross and deserted him, they were cowards doubters and liars which mercy and grace overlook because the real God hidding in the darkness is Love and understands mans weakness, not the angry ego maniac dictator with fatal attraction syndrome that demands someone love Him/Her or else.
And if Godrulz and the rest really believe this nonsense then like I said previous, kill your children before they reach the age of accountability, why take such risk and gamble with your off spring going to this eternity of torture, or cease to exist, neither one is worth the risk.
This was clearly done when the disciples dropped their cross and deserted him, they were cowards doubters and liars which mercy and grace overlook because the real God hidding in the darkness is Love and understands mans weakness, not the angry ego maniac dictator with fatal attraction syndrome that demands someone love Him/Her or else.
And if Godrulz and the rest really believe this nonsense then like I said previous, kill your children before they reach the age of accountability, why take such risk and gamble with your off spring going to this eternity of torture, or cease to exist, neither one is worth the risk.
Well, the Biblical principle of death is that those who die return to dust. Those whom Christ raises from death live. There is no Biblical Principle that says "death is separation". I was offering you a chance to defend your doctrine using the Bible, but you can't.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Thank you for being honest. Jesus said that He is The One and Only Way, Truth and Life. Not believing Him, you're liable to believe anything, which is what you do. You've swallowed a lie because you don't place your faith in the only Truth there is: The Word of God.
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Bible says that, "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment," but teaching that death is the end of sinners isn't wholly Scriptural. You have to teach also about ECT, because The Bible does.
BigBoof1959
New member
Hebrews 9:27 is a worst-case translation scenario in most bibles for those who "add to, or take away from", what God had said. In this verse the translators of the vast majority of bibles have done both in one verse.
Heb. 9:27- And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
In the Greek text there is an article (τοῖς ) before the word "men", which would normally be translated as "the" or "those". Who would "those" men be? The section of the book that this verse is found in focuses on comparing the ministry of the high priests year by year with that of Christ's once-for-all sacrifice. "Those men" who symbolically die "once" (a year) when they enter the Holy of Holies on the day of atonement.
The same article - τοῖς - is used in verse 28 where it actually appears in translations - "unto those who wait for Him, He will appear a second time....". But in most translations this article is "taken away" in verse 27.
Verses 27 and 28 are describing what happens on the Day of Atonement, where the High Priest offers a sacrifice first for himself and then for the nation and enters the Holy of Holies to put the blood on the Mercy Seat. After doing this, his ministry is judged as to whether it has been done properly. If so, he returns outside from the Holy of Holies to show the people that the atonement has been judged as acceptable and to bless the people. That is what the "He shall appear the second time unto salvation" is talking about.
After "taking away" the phrase "those men" and making it sound like this verse is talking about all men in general, most translators proceed to "add" to the word of God to create the impression that this verse is talking about a "final" judgement. They insert the definite article "the" in front of the word "judgement" to create the impression that the verse is talking about THE (final) judgement. There is no article here in the Greek text.
One other thing- if we accept the traditional translation that says it is appointed unto men to die once and after this the judgement, there are a lot of exceptions to be made. Like Enoch and Elijah, who were taken up without dying. And all of those that the bible records as having been miraculously raised from the dead. Are these people still alive today? If not then they died once (before being miraculously raised back to life), and then died again later on.
The idea of "if 'eternal life' means "forever" then the same must hold true for "death", is based on a wrong assumption that the Greek word normally translated as "eternal or forever" actually means that. It doesn't. It means "age". Aionian life is the "life pertaining to the Messianic age". Most believers panic at the thought and say that if the word "aionian" does not mean "forever" this means believers will not live forever. They forget that at the end of the age that "aionian life" refers to, death will have been abolished and done away with. Swallowed up by life.
Heb. 9:27- And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
In the Greek text there is an article (τοῖς ) before the word "men", which would normally be translated as "the" or "those". Who would "those" men be? The section of the book that this verse is found in focuses on comparing the ministry of the high priests year by year with that of Christ's once-for-all sacrifice. "Those men" who symbolically die "once" (a year) when they enter the Holy of Holies on the day of atonement.
The same article - τοῖς - is used in verse 28 where it actually appears in translations - "unto those who wait for Him, He will appear a second time....". But in most translations this article is "taken away" in verse 27.
Verses 27 and 28 are describing what happens on the Day of Atonement, where the High Priest offers a sacrifice first for himself and then for the nation and enters the Holy of Holies to put the blood on the Mercy Seat. After doing this, his ministry is judged as to whether it has been done properly. If so, he returns outside from the Holy of Holies to show the people that the atonement has been judged as acceptable and to bless the people. That is what the "He shall appear the second time unto salvation" is talking about.
After "taking away" the phrase "those men" and making it sound like this verse is talking about all men in general, most translators proceed to "add" to the word of God to create the impression that this verse is talking about a "final" judgement. They insert the definite article "the" in front of the word "judgement" to create the impression that the verse is talking about THE (final) judgement. There is no article here in the Greek text.
One other thing- if we accept the traditional translation that says it is appointed unto men to die once and after this the judgement, there are a lot of exceptions to be made. Like Enoch and Elijah, who were taken up without dying. And all of those that the bible records as having been miraculously raised from the dead. Are these people still alive today? If not then they died once (before being miraculously raised back to life), and then died again later on.
The idea of "if 'eternal life' means "forever" then the same must hold true for "death", is based on a wrong assumption that the Greek word normally translated as "eternal or forever" actually means that. It doesn't. It means "age". Aionian life is the "life pertaining to the Messianic age". Most believers panic at the thought and say that if the word "aionian" does not mean "forever" this means believers will not live forever. They forget that at the end of the age that "aionian life" refers to, death will have been abolished and done away with. Swallowed up by life.
He is holy, because he doesn't give out ECT. That is a truth.