Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[ok doser]

Yes to the first and it depends on the latter.

and yet children are raped by those who disagree, who don't see it as wrong

does their failure to recognize what's obvious to you and me make us wrong?

 

[Arthur Brain]

give me the bullet points


here's mine

- eternal
- conscious
- torment
- separation from God

Either read it or don't. Logos X takes "hell" apart in a way that can't be reduced to bullet points. If you're not interested then don't.

 

[Arthur Brain]

and yet children are raped by those who disagree, who don't see it as wrong

does their failure to recognize what's obvious to you and me make us wrong?

No, but as a comparison to the subject matter it doesn't work. Anyone with a functioning empathy centre of the brain would recognize that child rape is horrific as well as interminable suffering.

 

[ok doser]

No, but as a comparison to the subject matter it doesn't work.

i think it does

Anyone with a functioning empathy centre of the brain would recognize that child rape is horrific ....

many convicted pedophiles have demonstrably functioning empathy centers and don't recognize what they call "child love" as horrific

they disagree that child rape is wrong, black and white; they have a warped view of the effects of their actions

just as some Christians have a warped view of what is clearly written in scripture

 

[ok doser]

Either read it or don't. Logos X takes "hell" apart in a way that can't be reduced to bullet points. If you're not interested then don't.

then it appears we're at an impasse

i've given you my understanding of hell

you can't articulate your own

ok :idunno:

 

[Arthur Brain]

i think it does

It doesn't but that's your prerogative.

many convicted pedophiles have demonstrably functioning empathy centers and don't recognize what they call "child love" as horrific

they disagree that child rape is wrong, black and white; they have a warped view of the effects of their actions

Some may be unable to differentiate but that's hardly the norm and anyone with an entirely functioning empathy centre wouldn't have that problem, which is most people and why we have the laws that protect people from rape, molestation, assault etc.

just as some Christians have a warped view of what is clearly written in scripture

Oh, there's certainly some warped doctrines out there.

 

[Arthur Brain]

then it appears we're at an impasse

i've given you my understanding of hell

you can't articulate your own

ok :idunno:

So you're not interested in delving deeper and learning then, not surprising but noted. To return the same simplistic stuff in kind, pretty much the opposite to yours.

 

[ok doser]

Some may be unable to differentiate..

they can differentiate just fine, they just see their actions as loving, not harmful

but that's hardly the norm

we're not talking about the norm, are we?

we're talking about fringe elements

and anyone with an entirely functioning empathy centre wouldn't have that problem

many of these convicted pedophiles show normal degrees of empathy in other areas


they see their actions as loving, not abusive

they say they're right (see: universalists)

you and i say they're wrong (see: mainstream Christianity)

So you're not interested in delving deeper and learning then, not surprising but noted. To return the same simplistic stuff in kind, pretty much the opposite to yours.

so, your position is

- limited duration
- not conscious
- not torment
- reunited with God in heaven

and you believe that serves justice to the wicked?

 

[Arthur Brain]

they can differentiate just fine, they just see their actions as loving, not harmful



we're not talking about the norm, are we?

we're talking about fringe elements




many of these convicted pedophiles show normal degrees of empathy in other areas


they see their actions as loving, not abusive

they say they're right (see: universalists)

you and i say they're wrong (see: mainstream Christianity)

For those that can't understand that molesting a child is wrong, then their brain isn't working normally. A convicted pedophile who understands exactly what they've done to a child is abusive is unlikely to have empathy in other areas.

With regards to your latter then universal restoration was hardly a fringe belief in the early church as others have shown on here time and again, on the universalism thread for starters.

so, your position is

- limited duration
- not conscious
- not torment
- reunited with God in heaven

and you believe that serves justice to the wicked?

"The wicked"? Who's that then, anyone who lacks a belief in God? Universal restoration doesn't negate justice or punishment. Those who think that the only way "justice" can be served is for other people to suffer in torment for eternity would seem to have a malfunctioning right supramarginal gyrus...

 

[Bright Raven]

Revelation 20:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[ok doser]

For those that can't understand that molesting a child is wrong, then their brain isn't working normally.

in some cases, sure

but in the majority of those examined, their brains are working normally

A convicted pedophile who understands exactly what they've done to a child is abusive is unlikely to have empathy in other areas.

i think i understand what you were trying for here, and as I have said, many of them show normal levels of empathy in other areas

indeed, many think that they are being loving to the children they molest

With regards to your latter then universal restoration was hardly a fringe belief in the early church as others have shown on here time and again, on the universalism thread for starters.

not going to get into a debate on that, the evidence is too weak to support either side of the argument of whether or not universal restoration was a majority viewpoint (it wasn't) or to what degree it was fringe

"The wicked"? Who's that then...

anybody who makes the free will choice to reject God

Universal restoration doesn't negate justice..

i disagree

Those who think that the only way "justice" can be served is for other people to suffer in torment for eternity...

Jesus?

would seem to have a malfunctioning right supramarginal gyrus...

perhaps those who think the wicked deserve universal restoration have a pathologically over-developed right supramarginal gyrus

maybe they all have brain tumors :idunno:

 

[Arthur Brain]

in some cases, sure

but in the majority of those examined, their brains are working normally

i think i understand what you were trying for here, and as I have said, many of them show normal levels of empathy in other areas.

If a person can't see that an adult having sexual relations with a child is abuse then that person's brain isn't working normally.

indeed, many think that they are being loving to the children they molest

As above.

not going to get into a debate on that, the evidence is too weak to support either side of the argument of whether or not universal restoration was a majority viewpoint (it wasn't) or to what degree it was fringe

If you think the evidence is "too weak" to support either side and you're not prepared to do some research then you're not in a position to say it wasn't.

anybody who makes the free will choice to reject God

What about the unloving and the unmerciful?

i disagree

Well of course you do because your idea of "justice" requires other people to suffer through eternity.

Jesus?

The Man who 's heart was moved with compassion when He saw the suffering of others?

perhaps those who think the wicked deserve universal restoration have a pathologically over-developed right supramarginal gyrus

maybe they all have brain tumors :idunno:

Or rather they have a love and hope for their fellow, fallible neighbour and neither advocate nor take glee in the prospect of anybody interminably suffering. You'd have to have empathy and compassion in order to understand that unfortunately.

 

[ok doser]

If a person can't see that an adult having sexual relations with a child is abuse then that person's brain isn't working normally.

no, i'm sorry artie, that doesn't follow

and the scientific evidence doesn't support it

As above.

if you want to create it as a tautology rooted in emotion, sure

but it's unsupportable

If you think the evidence is "too weak" to support either side and you're not prepared to do some research then you're not in a position to say it wasn't.

the evidence I have seen and that i find persuasive tells me that the concept of universal reconciliation was held by less than half of the ealry leaders of the church

how much less than half is a matter of opinion and conjecture and i see no point in addressing it here

What about the unloving and the unmerciful?

what about them?

Well of course you do because your idea of "justice" requires other people to suffer through eternity.

rather, my clear reading of scripture tells me that it is so

The Man who 's heart was moved with compassion when He saw the suffering of others?

i'll let JR address this if he wants - you've dodged it a few times already

Or rather they have a love and hope for their fellow, fallible neighbour and neither advocate nor take glee in the prospect of anybody interminably suffering. You'd have to have empathy and compassion in order to understand that unfortunately.

i reported that for personalizing the discussion artie

try to stay on topic without personalizing your argument

 

[ok doser]

Or rather they have a love and hope for their fellow, fallible neighbour

i have that

i suspect JR does as well

and neither advocate nor take glee in the prospect of anybody interminably suffering.

when one has made the free will choice to reject God, they have no one to blame for their suffering but themself

You'd have to have empathy and compassion in order to understand that unfortunately.

empathy and compassion for the wicked?

tell me artie, how much empathy and compassion do you have for Hitler and the nazis who tortured, brutalized and murdered millions?

how much empathy and compassion do you have for my hypothetical person who kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed seventeen children?

 

[Arthur Brain]

i have that

i suspect JR does as well

No, you don't. You have nothing but a judgemental and completely uncompassionate attitude towards anyone who doesn't profess faith. You even think you're going to be able to someday laugh at those who do if it doesn't line up with yours, aka FL.

when one has made the free will choice to reject God, they have no one to blame for their suffering but themself

Q.E.D

empathy and compassion for the wicked?

tell me artie, how much empathy and compassion do you have for Hitler and the nazis who tortured, brutalized and murdered millions?

how much empathy and compassion do you have for my hypothetical person who kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed seventeen children?

Wow, I would have thought that even you would have realized how desperate your argument is to allude to Hitler in order to make a point? It's not a good move, especially since a good number of those who were murdered and brutalized by such regimes and despots would have somehow "chosen" the eternal torment of which you believe? After all, it's not committing atrocities that sends someone to "hell" is it? Your unbelieving relative who's biggest crime might have been jaywalking would end up in this hell, right?

 

[Arthur Brain]

no, i'm sorry artie, that doesn't follow

and the scientific evidence doesn't support it

Then bring the scientific evidence forward.

if you want to create it as a tautology rooted in emotion, sure

but it's unsupportable

It was neither, but it sure sounded as though you were saying something substantive even if it wasn't.

the evidence I have seen and that i find persuasive tells me that the concept of universal reconciliation was held by less than half of the ealry leaders of the church

how much less than half is a matter of opinion and conjecture and i see no point in addressing it here

Then I'd suggest reading a bit more, even though I strongly suspect you won't.

what about them?

Do you think they're held in a positive light?

rather, my clear reading of scripture tells me that it is so

The scripture that's so clear that everybody agrees on it?

i'll let JR address this if he wants - you've dodged it a few times already

I haven't dodged anything by JR so that's not very honest. If he thinks that I have then he's welcome to mention it himself.

i reported that for personalizing the discussion artie

try to stay on topic without personalizing your argument

That's kinda hysterical considering and observation doesn't equal personalization. Anybody who can take glee at the prospect of the eternal suffering of other people lacks compassion and empathy or have something defective in the part of the brain that regulates those attributes, so it's not just you.

 

[Aimiel]

No, I could not but thanks for asking....I guess? Somehow I sense a touch of insult in your post, almost as if it’s my own fault because I didn’t try hard enough. I tried to reconcile those many bible faults, like the one under discussion here for a long time, but I was not able to do so and had to be honest with myself when the evidence became to great. Perhaps you’ll have better luck.

Maybe you’ll be able to understand how love hates or a gracious Father kills his own children and then tortures them for all eternity along with his worst enemy.

God doesn't kill. He can only bless. Those who are judged bring judgment upon themselves. God would that all men might be saved. He's never turned anyone away.

 

[glorydaz]

because Pneuma's description of someone with a cartoon version understanding of ECT seems to fit artie to a T

Nice try, Doser. Artie was confronting you with the version you, and so many others, have been pushing.

He has consistently said that "cartoon version understanding" goes against the character of God.

 

[Arthur Brain]

yes, i'd recommend it, but not for kids younger than high school age - a lot of disturbing imagery - this was a rare Williams film - a serious work, not comedy

Williams actually did a fair bit of serious roles in film.

Good Will Hunting (outstanding performance in that)
One Hour Photo
Dead Poets Society
Insomnia
Patch Adams, among others.

He was a lot more than just a comic and sadly missed.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, it's been a while since he's been on here but he was a major contributor here when I first joined. If you're really that interested then you can read what I go along with here:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...nbelievers-Spend-Eternity-in-the-Lake-of-Fire

This is a great debate. Well worth the time. :thumb: