Baptists are Protestants. What else are you wrong about?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Baptists are Protestants. What else are you wrong about?
We are still conscious despite spiritual death. We are still conscious in eternal/second death because it refers to separation, not cessation.
http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
Doormat
New member
And I just scratched the surface with those verses.
Take a look at Matt. 25. they are not.
1. Yes. Sinless perfectionism is not biblical in the temporal state.
2. Sin is a wrong moral choice. It is not called a fruit, good or bad. It is volitional, lawlessness, rebellion, selfishness, disobedience. The fruit story relates to false prophets, etc., not sanctification/hamartiology.
3. We are not trees, but free moral agents. Trees operate under the law of cause-effect. We operate under the law of love/choices/freedom.
4. I take a minority view on the impeccability of Christ. Jesus was tempted, yet without sin. We are tempted, yet we sin. To deny that Jesus could have theoretically sinned is to deny His genuine humanity. Jesus is sinless because He did not sin, never will sin. There is no chance that He would or will sin. Jesus is not a tree, so consider Him a moral agent, not a plant.
5. Jesus is the God-Man, one person with two natures. God is spirit. Jesus added humanity to His Deity without ceasing to be Deity. God became flesh (Word/Christ, not Father/Spirit), but His body is not God, but He as one person is God.
Your turn:
Is Jesus God Almighty or a created being?
If you say He is God and worship Him as such, we are brothers quibbling over a doctrinal debate.
If you deny He is God, you are a cultist, not a Christian. You are wasting your time talking about hell when your Christology is defective (salvific issue, unlike views on after life).
The atheist is a poor exegete also. Those verses do not support annihilationism.
Doormat
New member
What do you mean by "spiritual death?"
Explain how one can exist separate from God when He sustains life. What other source of life do you imagine that would allow a person to have life while being separate from God? I have no idea what you mean by separate from God; the idea appears illogical.
No thanks. I've studied the Bible and can clearly see what it states about the Day of the Lord.
Tinark
Active member
Who is to decide whether they support that intrepretation or not? Taking them at their literal face value suggests annihilationism. If you start with the assumption that your view must be correct and the annihilationist view is heretical, you can reinterpret and rationalize anything to be consistent with that view if you try hard enough.
Doormat
New member
Your argument is dazzling.
Doormat
New member
Jesus is God. You might have discerned that from my slogan/motto.
You failed the test. While you are my brother in a literal sense (Acts 17:28), you are not in a figurative sense (1Jn 3:8). Furthermore, you deny the deity of Christ by denying he was/is impeccable.
Tinark
Active member
Just curious. Since you believe God is the source of moral standards and determines what is and is not sinful, and since Jesus is God, wouldn't it have been logically impossible for Jesus to sin, since any action He could have taken or any thought He could of had would be, by definition, not sinful?
Doormat
New member
:first:
Why do you focus on the darkness, rather than the Light of the world?
I do not deny the Deity of Christ since I affirm that He is YHWH. He is uncreated Creator. He is God Almighty. He is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. This is NOT a denial of the Deity of Christ.
The impeccability of Christ is another matter relating to anthropology, morals vs metaphysics, etc. You deny that He has a will, so you deny His humanity, another serious error in church history (if you do not deny His humanity...and I doubt you do, then I don't doubt His Deity...your argument is specious and shows your lack of theological background).
We agree that Jesus is sinless. If I said He sinned, then you could whine.
God's character is the basis for moral absolutes (leaving atheists with no basis for morality except co-opting Judeo-Christian principles).
If Jesus murdered someone, lusted, committed adultery, worshipped idols or Satan, etc., then He would have sinned. He did none of these and was sinless.
Will not is not cannot. The bottom line is that He is the God-Man, one person with two natures. He is the sinless Lamb of God and would never choose unintelligently.
The Christian tradition/theology issues relate to original sin, Platonic influences (body/humanity is inherently sinful/evil), etc. I reject Augustinian original sin because sin is a volitional/mental choice, not a genetic substance. Body is not evil, but what we do with the body determines vice or virtue. The virgin birth allowed Deity to become humanity. It was not to keep Jesus sinless. Aquinas, etc. confused philosophical issues of being/metaphysics with moral/volitional issues.
Atheists rightly stumble on bad theology (like hyper-Calvinism that makes God arbitrary and responsible for evil, etc.). Not all tradition is truth.
My brother does not understand the history of dogma and is jumping to wrong conclusions (non sequitur...a denial of traditional impeccability is not a denial of His Deity).
Doormat
New member
No I don't.
Correct. The issue is what the Bible says. So why did attempt to discredit me by linking me with cults? The Bible does not support eternal conscious torment. You haven't given even one verse that says the wicked will go to hell when they die to be tormented alive there forever while they are dead. The issue is what the Bible says. The Bible specifically says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. The fallacy you committed is called "poisoning the well," attempting to link your opponents view to that of a disliked group in an illogical attempt to discredit the view. It did not work. The fact that you attempted this shows that you have no biblical support for ECT. Just stick to what the Bible says, the Bible will guide you.
I would have to throw out the bible to believe in eternal conscious torment. The Bible does not supprt ECT. I have not thrown out the Bible. The Bible supports Conditional Immortality, only those who receive eternal life from Jesus Christ will receive eternal life. Those who do not have eternal life will perish.
Then His will is not free and the line about temptation is false. A robot cannot sin. A moral being will not sin.
You have been given verses, but you twist them away.