Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Nope, just describing what really should be obvious.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Nope, just describing what really should be obvious.
Quit obfuscating, Artie.
So there has to be meaning behind the judgment?
What about the fact that the wicked deserve justice? Is that a good enough purpose for it to be loving for God to judge the wicked?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
I'm not. You're guilty of the same foibles as the rest of humanity, hypocrisy, lies, selfishness etc, do you deny it? Stop trying to blanket those people you seem to believe deserving of eternal "hell" as "wicked" when you're just as flawed as your next door neighbour.
If your sole idea of "justice" is eternal torment for other people then obviously, no.
A delusion based upon the primal fear of your caveman ancestors? You know, those people who lived in caves 40,000 years ago who have the same DNA that you have. them
I mean, the real God couldn't actually get angry, or have wrath....since the bible itself condemns those behaviors....right?
And wouldn't torturing people forever be an evil of the highest degree?
So....you people think God evil then. Well. That is something.
"Unto You oh Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."
Some of the translators make it kindness and goodness; but I presume there is no real difference among them as to the character of the word which here, in the English Bible, is translated mercy.
The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:--'To thee, O Lord, belongeth justice, for thou renderest to every man according to his work.'
http://www.online-literature.com/george-macdonald/unspoken-sermons/31/
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
why would you think he'd deny it?
all men are wicked
he sure is
so am i
filthy rags on our own
so what?
Yes, Arty, you are.
I'm speaking in general terms, and you keep trying to turn it back on me.
Where in the world did you get the idea that I think I'm "whiter than white," or that I'm not "guilty as the rest of humanity," or that I'm not "just as flawed as my next door neighbor"?
This is what obfuscation means, Arty.
Again, I'm asking a simple question in general terms, and you try to make me out to be the bad guy.
Arty, if you can't answer the question with a straight answer, just say so.
I haven't said anything about eternal torment at this point.
I'm just asking if it's loving for God to judge the wicked. Is it?
How about this question:
Would God be justified in punishing the wicked simply because they're wicked?
The God-as-Judge viewpoint does not present a biblical picture of what divine justice is about at all, but is a legalistic perspective that comes from human culture.
Biblically, to “bring justice” does not mean to bring punishment, but to bring healing and reconciliation. Justice means to make things right. Throughout the Prophets justice is associated with caring for others, as something that is not in conflict with mercy, but rather an expression of it. Divine justice is God’s saving action at work for all that are oppressed, as the following verses demonstrate:
Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow (Isaiah 1:17). Note what happens when one does right by seeking justice. The oppressed are encouraged and the helpless are helped.
This is what the LORD says: "`Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed (Jeremiah 21:12). Justice is done when the oppressed is rescued.
This is what the LORD Almighty says: `Administer true justice: show mercy and compassion to one another (Zechariah 7:9). How does one administer true justice? By showing mercy and compassion to everybody involved.
Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice (Isaiah 30:18). What is the reason our Lord wants to be gracious to us? Because He is just.
If we want to understand the concept of justice as the writers of the Old Testament did, then we must see it as a “setting things right again.” There is no conflict between God’s justice and His mercy. They both flow from His love…-Steve McVey-
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
The "so what" bit says it all.
Define "it".
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
No, Judgy, I'm not. Repeating the same word or charge as if it gains any more validity doesn't work.
Quite simply, because of the way you like to blanket anyone going to "hell" as "wicked". When you're as guilty of the rest of your fellow man of negative traits then pointing that out isn't obfuscation at all.
You were answered straight up in my last and beforehand.
Given the topic of the thread and your prior propensity to believing in it then what else is anyone supposed to think where it comes to your ideas of "justice"? I answered you already that it isn't necessarily unloving or unjustifiable to judge and punish people. If it's done in love then it isn't eternal torment. Could I be any more clear?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Define what?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Whatever "it" happened to be at the moment. :chuckle:
The universe didn't exist 40,000 years ago.
Have you even bothered to read the Bible?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, - Romans 1:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans1:18&version=NKJV
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. - Romans 12:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans12:19&version=NKJV
The Bible doesn't say "torture," though, now does it?
:blabla:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes, and you are correct, Artie.
We see where this is headed. It's the old "tag team" ploy that works well in silencing any opponent.
I should lodge a preemptive complaint....if that were even possible here on TOL. I don't see any place to do that, however. :cheers:
Then let's put this to rest and move on.
That would be true, if it weren't Christ's completed work on the Cross.
I'm no longer identified as a sinner, even though I still sin.
I'm identified in Christ, and I am considered "justified." When God looks at me, he sees Christ, for Christ is my covering.
The wicked are not, and when God looks at them, he sees their wickedness.
I asked a question about the wicked.
Ergo, I am excluded, by default, from the question.
Maybe you should answer the questions I ask, and not the questions you wish I would ask.
Thank you for making our point for us.
As you said, "if it's done in love."
God separating the wicked from His own is done in love.
That they spend the rest of eternity separated from Him is done out of love for both them and for His own.
This is the point we have been trying to make to you. It IS out of love that God casts those who reject Him into the Lake of Fire, because, as Christ said in the Garden of Gethsemane three times, "if there be any other way, let this cup pass from Me, but if not, let Your will be done" (in other words, there's no other way for God to save mankind from themselves, but for Christ to die for them on the Cross).
Why is separation from God not the cause of their torment, instead of God Himself?
As scripture says:
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “ and not that he should turn from his ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel18:23&version=NKJV
What is "it" in the following post:
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
The casual flippancy of someone who thinks the suffering of other people is no big deal. Thought it was kinda obvious.