well ... if one wants to believe that the lost, that may include ones good friends, family members etc will live in a burning fire for eternity and that God is ok with that ... then that's up to them/you. If the lost are or will burn in hell for eternity I can't think of anything more torturing than that. Even most of us humans recognize torture is not "ok".
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
well ... if one wants to believe that the lost, that may include ones good friends, family members etc will live in a burning fire for eternity and that God is ok with that ... then that's up to them/you. If the lost are or will burn in hell for eternity I can't think of anything more torturing than that. Even most of us humans recognize torture is not "ok".
way 2 go
Well-known member
the only thing you address is your strawman
the bible does not say torture .
I guess I have exceeded the limit of your biblical knowledge.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
if you reject God's love then you get judgement Heb 9:27
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
God didn't
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
you misquoted the verse
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
endless punishment , yes.
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
eternal punishment is not evil
From eternity past God intended that the most vivid and profound demonstration of his glory would come in the form of His work of salvation on the cross of Christ.
God then made man to punish him.
He made him perfect and thus unlikely to ever need punishing, or, for that matter, need a Savior.
By a happy coincidence, and against all the odds, this perfect man sinned, thus allowing God to fulfill His purposes for both the man and Christ.
When he sinned, God, who is suddenly confronted with the prospect of being able to fulfill all of His original plans, becomes furious.
What you have just read is not a joke. I wish that it were. Rather, I have simply enumerated the points that comprise the Calvinist theological system, or, as I call it:
the Happy Coincidence model of sin and salvation.
It reflects what can only be described as an Alice-in-Wonderland reality, in which the only sense is nonsense, and logic is the enemy. -Stephen Campana-
God then made man to punish him.
He made him perfect and thus unlikely to ever need punishing, or, for that matter, need a Savior.
By a happy coincidence, and against all the odds, this perfect man sinned, thus allowing God to fulfill His purposes for both the man and Christ.
When he sinned, God, who is suddenly confronted with the prospect of being able to fulfill all of His original plans, becomes furious.
What you have just read is not a joke. I wish that it were. Rather, I have simply enumerated the points that comprise the Calvinist theological system, or, as I call it:
the Happy Coincidence model of sin and salvation.
It reflects what can only be described as an Alice-in-Wonderland reality, in which the only sense is nonsense, and logic is the enemy. -Stephen Campana-
the only thing you address is your strawman
"the bible does not say torture."
I guess I have exceeded the limit of your biblical knowledge.
"the bible does not say torture" .. you are correct it does not ... but I can't imagine how torturous it would be to consciously burn in hell for eternity.
.well ... something about it ... if one teaches people consciously burn in hell for eternity and if that is incorrect teaching and that teaching prevents people from coming to the Lord (which it does) then how might the Lord look at that? Would that be a big deal to Him?
on the other hand
if one teaches people do not burn consciously in hell for eternity ... how is the Lord going to look at that? Would that be a big deal to Him?
We are not the first to have different viewpoints on this matter there are different teachings on the subject to put forth an understanding/teaching of scripture and will be accountable for them.
Wouldn't be too much of a big deal, since everyone would forgive everyone for the mistake, right? Eventually?
:idunno:
On the other hand, though...
If someone teaches that sinners won't burn in hell for eternity, and they end up being wrong, then they themselves have condemned those in hell to hell, and those in hell will blame them and God for not making it utterly clear that they would burn in hell.
Seems like it would be better to warn them of hell, even if it turns out to be wrong, than to never have warned them at all.
Hell was made for adulterers, fornicators, murderers, rapists, theives, perjurers, coveters, blasphemers, idolaters.
Quite to the contrary! Punishment that does not produce change and transformation is evil and mindless.
Punishment by the Father of all fathers results in change & transformation.
God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
Eternal separation for those who will never change their minds is neither evil nor mindless.
No, it doesn't.
Need an example?
Go read the story of Pharaoh and the ten plagues.
:blabla:
Dear J.R. I assume you know what the koine for destruction is in reference to the individual turned over to satan in the N.T. Your question= what is the result?
God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Do you honestly think a loving God would create life whereby eternal burning in hell could be a result? Does that not give you pause for thought at all? Also, if you have to threaten someone with some unimaginably horrifying fate then where is the love in any of that? You can't coerce love otherwise it's not love, it's simply threatening people to act out of fear. Is that what a loving God wants?
Have you ever lied? Had impure thoughts? Coveted? You're just as much human as you seem to apply to those for whom "hell" was made for.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
what it sez is "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"
Gonna address yours first.
Yes. Because that's exactly what He did.
Why should it?
Love can only be freely given.
It's either God, or separation from God.
That's what Hell/the lake of fire is. Separation.
The most loving thing God could do is allow His creation to choose between Him and separation from Him.
Why is it a threat, when being with God for eternity, and not being with God for eternity, are the ONLY two options?
God said make a choice.
There's no in between.
It's not.
It's making people face reality, which is that there are, in the end, only two options, either remain with God for eternity, or be separated from Him for all eternity.
God wants people to choose Him, not force them to be with Him.
It comes down to who says "thy will be done," the man, or God.
Of course.
The difference, though, is that I choose God, rather than separation from Him, so that now I am no longer identified by my sins, but identified in Christ, my Savior.
Those who are not, when they die, will have made their choice final.
Yes. Because that's exactly what He did.
Why should it?
Love can only be freely given.
It's either God, or separation from God.
That's what Hell/the lake of fire is. Separation.
The most loving thing God could do is allow His creation to choose between Him and separation from Him.
Why is it a threat, when being with God for eternity, and not being with God for eternity, are the ONLY two options?
God said make a choice.
There's no in between.
It's not.
It's making people face reality, which is that there are, in the end, only two options, either remain with God for eternity, or be separated from Him for all eternity.
God wants people to choose Him, not force them to be with Him.
It comes down to who says "thy will be done," the man, or God.
Of course.
The difference, though, is that I choose God, rather than separation from Him, so that now I am no longer identified by my sins, but identified in Christ, my Savior.
Those who are not, when they die, will have made their choice final.
FL, either one chooses God before he dies or he does not.
If he does, he says to God, "Your will be done," and he will live with God forever.
If he does not, God will say to him on judgment day, "your will be done," and cast him into the Lake of Fire.
Those are the only two options.
:blabla:
Dear J.R. I assume you do not grasp the scope of apollumi so we will not bother advancing to kolasis and kolazo.
Focus on the Master's word to his disciples for every age>>>>
"You did NOT choose Me..."
"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/restore
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
cool story bro
Taking scripture out of context is sure to cause you problems.
I recommend you read what the context of that verse is before using it again.
:blabla:
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Not according to plenty who translated the original texts He didn't.
Because it goes against anything associated with love. The most sadistic human couldn't top eternal torment, no matter what form it would take.
True love sure, it's not reliant on threats which again should give you pause for thought. Ever read a "Chick tract"? "Turn or burn" doctrines emphasize horror, not love.
Where it comes to your interpretation of hell/the lake of fire then there's plenty others that disagree. In my former church there were differing views, from it being literal burning to separation and in some cases some form of physical and spiritual suffering combined among others.
Not if fallible beings are subject to a designed eternity of suffering of some sort if they stumble in one finite life it isn't.
Because everyone who doesn't believe in this snapshot of a life or have the wrong belief are deliberately making a choice to go to "hell"?
Well, with your beliefs that would seem so. Doesn't mean your stance on the matter is actual truth though.
Your beliefs are not "reality" for everyone else. You can no more prove them to be reality than the next person who has a completely different take on hell can prove theirs either.
If you'd been born in a fundamentalist Islamic family you could well be saying the same in regards to Allah.
As above. Do you see shades of grey at all amid the black and white?
http://www.godrules.net/library/weymouth/weymouthjoh15.htm
"Faith is not an art. Faith is not an achievement. Faith is not a good work of which some may boast while others can excuse themselves with a shrug of the shoulders for not being capable of it. It is a decisive insight of faith itself that all of us are incapable of faith in ourselves, whether we think of its preparation, beginning, continuation, or completion." -Karl Barth-
Yup! God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta