Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Rosenritter

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Oh goody....let's compare commentaries. I'll submit these for your reading pleasure. I know what I see when I read this chapter. I just looked up some others (three of four) who said Samuel was brought up by God.

Matthew Henry full commentary and concise commentary do seem to differ in their implication there. The full commentary was definite that the apparition was obviously a devil, whereas the concise commentary seems to indicate that he thought it to be a true representation of dead Samuel. That's interesting, because it seems like a self-contradiction. Either Matthew Henry revised his opinion in one or the other, or someone else did some editing. I am curious, do you have any data on this?

If you are interested in commentary, here is what King James I wrote on the subject through his characters in his Daemonologie:

Spoiler
PHI. The reasones are these, first Yee may consider, that Saul[1] being troubled in spirit, and having fasted long before, as the text testifieth, and being come to a woman that was bruted to have such knowledge, and that to inquire so important news, he having so guiltie a conscience for his hainous offences, and specially, for that same vnlawful curiositie, and horrible defection: and then the woman crying out vpon the suddaine in great admiration, for the vncouth sicht that she alledged to haue sene, discovering him to be the King, thogh disguysed, & denied by him before: it was no wounder I say, that his senses being thus distracted, he could not perceaue hir faining of hir voice, hee being himselfe in an other chalmer, and seeing nothing. Next what could be, or was raised? The spirit of Samuel? Prophane and against all Theologie: the Diuell in his likenes? as vnappeirant, that either God would permit him to come in the shape of his Saintes (for then could neuer the Prophets in those daies haue bene sure, what Spirit spake to them in their visiones) or then that he could fore-tell what was to come there after; for Prophecie proceedeth onelie of G O D: and the Devill hath no knowledge of things to come.EPI. Yet if Yee will marke the wordes of the text, ye will finde clearely, that Saul saw that apparition: for giving you that Saul was in an other Chalmer, at the making of the circles & conjurationes, needeful for that purpose (as none of that craft will permit any vthers to behold at that time)
[1. 1. Sam. 28.]

{p. 4}

yet it is evident by the text, that how sone that once that vnclean spirit was fully risen, shee called in vpon Saul. For it is saide in the text, that Saule knew him to be Samuel, which coulde not haue bene, by the hearing tell onely of an olde man with an mantil, since there was many mo old men dead in Israel nor Samuel: And the common weid of that whole Cuntrey was mantils. As to the next, that it was not the spirit of Samuel, I grant: In the proving whereof ye neede not to insist, since all Christians of whatso-ever Religion agrees vpon that: and none but either mere ignorants, or Necromanciers or Witches doubtes thereof. And that the Diuel is permitted at som-times to put himself in the liknes of the Saintes, it is plaine in the Scriptures, where it is said, that Sathan can trans-forme himselfe into an Angell of light[1]. Neither could that bring any inconvenient with the visiones of the Prophets, since it is most certaine, that God will not permit him so to deceiue his own: but only such, as first wilfully deceiues them-selves, by running vnto him, whome God then suffers to fall in their owne snares, and justlie permittes them to be illuded with great efficacy of deceit, because they would not beleeue the trueth (as Paul sayth). And as to the diuelles foretelling of things to come, it is true that he knowes not all things future, but yet that he knowes parte, the Tragicall event of this historie declares it, (which the wit of woman could never haue fore-spoken) not that he hath any prescience, which is only proper to God: or yet knows anie thing by loking vp-
[1. 2. Cor. 11. 14.]

{p. 5}

on God, as in a mirrour (as the good Angels doe) he being for euer debarred from the fauorable presence & countenance of his creator, but only by one of these two meanes, either as being worldlie wise, and taught by an continuall experience, ever since the creation, judges by likelie-hood of thinges to come, according to the like that hath passed before, and the naturall causes, in respect of the vicissitude of all thinges; worldly: Or else by Gods employing of him in a turne, and so foreseene thereof: as appeares to haue bin in this, whereof we finde the verie like in Micheas propheticque discourse to King Achab[1]. But to prooue this my first proposition, that there can be such a thing as witch-craft, & witches, there are manie mo places in the Scriptures then this (as I said before). As first in the law of God, it is plainely prohibited[2]: But certaine it is, that the Law of God speakes nothing in vaine, nether doth it lay curses, or injoyne punishmentes vpon shaddowes, condemning that to be il, which is not in essence or being as we call it. Secondlie it is plaine, where wicked Pharaohs wise-men imitated ane number of Moses miracles[3], to harden the tyrants heart there by. Thirdly, said not Samuell to Saull, that disobedience is as the sinne of Witch-craft?[4] To compare to a thing that were not, it were too too absurd. Fourthlie, was not Simon Magus, a man of that craft? And fiftlie, what was she that had the spirit of Python?[5] beside innumerable other places that were irkesom to recite.

I know that the English of that day is harder to read, so I'll translate the portion I boldfaced above:

As to the next, that it was not the spirit of Samuel, I grant: In the proving whereof ye need not to insist, since all Christians of whatsoever Religion agrees upon that: and none but either mere ignorants, or Necromancers or Witches doubt thereof. And that the Devil is permitted at sometimes to put himself in the likness of the Saints, it is plain in the Scriptures, where it is said, that Satan can transform himself into an Angel of light[1].

"As to the next, that it was not the spirit of Samuel, I grant: in the proving whereof ye need not to insist, since all Christians of whatsoever religion agrees upon that: and none but either mere ignorant, or necromancers, or witches doubt thereof. And that the Devil is permitted at sometimes to put himself in the likeness of the saints, it is plain in the scriptures, where it is said, that Satan can transform himself into an Angel of Light."

It's been some years since I was gathering these, but I remember Martin Luther and John Calvin also agreed with each other on this point, that the apparition was clearly the devil. The view that "Samuel" was indeed the actual Samuel became popular in the last couple centuries.


Here, too, is another version of Matthew Henry. Doesn't look the same to me.

Spoiler
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
28:7-19 When we go from the plain path of duty, every thing draws us further aside, and increases our perplexity and temptation. Saul desires the woman to bring one from the dead, with whom he wished to speak; this was expressly forbidden, De 18:11. All real or pretended witchcraft or conjuration, is a malicious or an ignorant attempt to gain knowledge or help from some creature, when it cannot be had from the Lord in the path of duty. While Samuel was living, we never read of Saul's going to advise with him in any difficulties; it had been well for him if he had. But now he is dead, Bring me up Samuel. Many who despise and persecute God's saints and ministers when living, would be glad to have them again, when they are gone. The whole shows that it was no human fraud or trick. Though the woman could not cause Samuel's being sent, yet Saul's inquiry might be the occasion of it. The woman's surprise and terror proved that it was an unusual and unexpected appearance. Saul had despised Samuel's solemn warnings in his lifetime, yet now that he hoped, as in defiance of God, to obtain some counsel and encouragement from him, might not God permit the soul of his departed prophet to appear to Saul, to confirm his former sentence, and denounce his doom? The expression, Thou and thy sons shall be with me, means no more than that they shall be in the eternal world. There appears much solemnity in God's permitting the soul of a departed prophet to come as a witness from heaven, to confirm the word he had spoken on earth.

Here are four of the most commonly suggested possibilities.

i. Some believe that this was a hallucination of the medium. But this doesn't make sense, because it doesn't explain why the medium was so frightened. It doesn't explain why Saul saw Samuel also, and why Samuel spoke to Saul, not to the medium.


It could have been a hallucination, or rather visible only by the medium. There is a thin line between a hallucination and a spirit that appears to only certain people. But this blends into your option 3 so I'm moving this logic to there.

ii. Some believe that this was a deception by the medium. But this also isn't an adequate explanation, for the same reasons given to the previous suggestion.

I am inclined to think that this was more than a mere stage trick. Even if the medium used tricks on a regular basis, and only sometimes got real spirits answering, she received information that this was the King of Israel. I'm with you on discarding this option 2.

iii. Some believe that this was a demonic impersonation of Samuel. It is possible that the medium, with her occultic powers, summoned a demonic spirit that deceived both her and Saul. But this suggestion is also inadequate, because it does not speak to the issue of motive. After all, what advantage does Satan gain by "Samuel's" words to Saul?

When it says that Saul "perceived" it was Saul, it doesn't have to mean that he "perceived" with his eyes. The voice could have come through the mouth of the medium, and he could have "perceived" in the sense that "he believed."

In favor of the "only seen by the medium" theory is that the medium first tells Saul what she is seeing, when Saul didn't see. She had to tell Saul initially "I see gods ascending out of the earth." I wouldn't want to rule out option 3 yet.

If "inadequate" is only ruled due to lack of apparent motive, scripture already gives several. First, the devil is called "adversary" and loves to destroy people with lies and/or torment when possible. This is also observed in the behavior of spirits of divination in present day. Second, God had already sent an evil spirit to torment Saul earlier, the same is referenced twice when David is summoned to play music for Saul. Therefore, there is precedent for God allowing evil spirits to plague Saul. A similar instance is referenced in 1 Kings 22:22, when God allows a lying spirit to enter the mouths of false prophets to cause a king's downfall. Third, it is written in scripture that for those that despise the truth, God himself will choose their delusion.

What advantage does Satan gain? The same advantage he gains anytime he messes with people. These are devils, that's the way they act.

iv. Some believe that this was a genuine (but strange) appearance of Samuel. This is the best explanation, because it is supported by the reaction of the medium, who got more than she bargained for. It is also supported by the truth of what Samuel said (and the text says that Samuel said it). Some may say that it is impossible for Samuel to reappear in some way, coming from the world beyond back to this world. But Moses and Elijah also came from the world beyond back to this world when they appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The medium may have gotten more than she bargained for if she often supplemented her divination with tricks, or expected a weaker devil instead of a powerful one. Regardless, it doesn't seem to read clearly that she was surprised at the spirit itself. She seemed more shocked in learning the identity of Saul.

The text does switch to using "Samuel" as the proper noun. However, it is much easier to write one word "Samuel" rather than "that which appeared to be Samuel" over and over. Considering how often the Hebrew scripture truncates text "such as simply saying "Goliath" rather than "the brother of Goliath" the word "Samuel" itself cannot be ruled as meaning "it was truly Samuel."

Is it impossible for Samuel to come back while dead? I would say yes. However, since that is what I am seeking to prove in another area, I wouldn't invoke that here because that's a loop back to circular argument. Did Moses and Elijah come back to visit Jesus? The actual text says it was a vision, Matthew 17:9, "Tell the vision to no man..." Given that the word "vision" implies a non-substantive quality, that leaves the argument as non-conclusive regardless. Neither one of us can use this point here.

v. Clarke makes an additional valuable point: "I believe that the woman of En-dor had no power over Samuel; and that no incantation can avail over any departed saint of God, nor indeed over any human disembodied spirit." Samuel really came, but not because the medium called for him. Samuel appeared because God had a special purpose for it.

I agree with Clarke, but not with your conclusion that it must therefore have been the actual Samuel. God has also been known to send devils to those that use divination (as in Kings 22) and had already sent spirits to plague Saul's mental health. Why should he break with that pattern now?

g. What was God's purpose in sending such a strange appearance of Samuel? This appearance of Samuel accomplished two things: it re-confirmed the coming judgment upon King Saul's in a dramatic way, and it taught the medium a powerful lesson about the dangers of her occultic craft.

i. "I believe Samuel did actually appear to Saul; and that he was sent by the especial mercy of God to warn this infatuated king of his approaching death, that he might have an opportunity to make his peace with his Maker." (Clarke)

ii. When we close our ears to God, He will find unusual - and perhaps uncomfortable - ways to speak to us. "That he did appear to Saul, there can be no question, but he did not come in response to her call. He was sent of God, for the express purpose of rebuking Saul for his unholy traffic with these evil things, and to pronounce his doom." (Morgan)

I appreciate the organized manner of response. The reason I invoked commentary was to establish that "the apparition was the devil" was not a new nor unsupported interpretation. I wanted opportunity to address the point on its merits.

We can discuss specific points above, but I think it should be evident that the passage by itself doesn't prove that the dead can come back without resurrection, let alone that they are conscious before being summoned. Other scripture has to come into play.
 
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Angel4Truth

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A house divided against itself cannot stand, the spirit of Samuel, was not a devil, pointing to the truth of the Lord.

I wonder why if God can make a donkey speak, and a virgin give birth, why Samuel's spirit is a hard thing?
 

Rosenritter

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A house divided against itself cannot stand, the spirit of Samuel, was not a devil, pointing to the truth of the Lord.

I wonder why if God can make a donkey speak, and a virgin give birth, why Samuel's spirit is a hard thing?

Yet Satan is a house divided against itself, and the devils in its domain often work in strange angles and against itself. They in fight against each other. Is your reasoning that "the apparition could not be Samuel" because it would be "out of character" for a devil to impersonate the dead? Out of character, or impossible? I don't understand your point.

The question is not if "it is possible for God to do such and such" because that's a useless argument: we allow for God to be omnipotent. Besides, that question turns right around on you, "Why do you have such a hard time believing that it is possible for God to allow devils to mess with those that he has abandoned as reprobate?"

1 Samuel 18:10 KJV
(10) And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.

1 Samuel 19:9 KJV
(9) And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1 Samuel 28:6 KJV
(6) And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Angel, now considering what we have for the track record of how God is dealing with Saul here, if he refuses to answer him by normal means, how would that be "in character" for God to answer by means of a prophet summoned by necromancy?

1 Samuel 28:15-16 KJV
(15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
(16) Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

When the LORD refuses to speak to Saul, why would you think that a legitimate Samuel would break the code of silence? If God wasn't answering your prayers, and you were to go to a witch and ask to speak to Jesus, do you think for a moment that what would be summoned would be the real Jesus?

Just consider your question please. Not only do we have the pattern God already established (and is he a man, that he should repent?) That quote even comes from the passage dealing with Saul in the first place:

1 Samuel 15:28-29 KJV
(28) And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.
(29) And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

God has been known to show mercy when someone repents, but Saul never repented in this. If he had, God may have spoken to him through the holy and established means of dreams or prophets of the LORD. Perhaps you should tell me why we should believe that God will repent of his policy of no longer speaking with Saul, because Saul decides to seek out a witch to try to summon the dead? Why is God going to change his character?
 

Angel4Truth

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Yet Satan is a house divided against itself, and the devils in its domain often work in strange angles and against itself. They in fight against each other. Is your reasoning that "the apparition could not be Samuel" because it would be "out of character" for a devil to impersonate the dead? Out of character, or impossible? I don't understand your point.

The question is not if "it is possible for God to do such and such" because that's a useless argument: we allow for God to be omnipotent. Besides, that question turns right around on you, "Why do you have such a hard time believing that it is possible for God to allow devils to mess with those that he has abandoned as reprobate?"

1 Samuel 18:10 KJV
(10) And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.

1 Samuel 19:9 KJV
(9) And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1 Samuel 28:6 KJV
(6) And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Angel, now considering what we have for the track record of how God is dealing with Saul here, if he refuses to answer him by normal means, how would that be "in character" for God to answer by means of a prophet summoned by necromancy?

1 Samuel 28:15-16 KJV
(15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
(16) Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

When the LORD refuses to speak to Saul, why would you think that a legitimate Samuel would break the code of silence? If God wasn't answering your prayers, and you were to go to a witch and ask to speak to Jesus, do you think for a moment that what would be summoned would be the real Jesus?

Just consider your question please. Not only do we have the pattern God already established (and is he a man, that he should repent?) That quote even comes from the passage dealing with Saul in the first place:

1 Samuel 15:28-29 KJV
(28) And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.
(29) And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

God has been known to show mercy when someone repents, but Saul never repented in this. If he had, God may have spoken to him through the holy and established means of dreams or prophets of the LORD. Perhaps you should tell me why we should believe that God will repent of his policy of no longer speaking with Saul, because Saul decides to seek out a witch to try to summon the dead? Why is God going to change his character?
Because it was the spirit of Samuel, like it says. Why do you believe it doesnt mean what it says?

Thats your problem, you read things into things that arent said, to support things the bible doesnt say.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Because it was the spirit of Samuel, like it says. Why do you believe it doesnt mean what it says?

Thats your problem, you read things into things that arent said, to support things the bible doesnt say.

rosey believes the human spirit can not live apart from the body


1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Luk 16:22 And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.

Mat 17:4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
 

Lon

Well-known member
She highlights.... the ...besides Rosey? :sigh:

... this Rosey's ...she/he has gone bi-polor on us. She has ...but Rosey is showing her...so she ....
I'm lost. I thought Kingdom Rose was a girl and Rosenritter was a guy??? :confused:

I always thought LA was a guy, but then Patrick told me 'he' was a 'she' then Lazy said he was a guy... or at least was offended I said 'girl.'

I must also confess, I thought Keypurr was an old lady from his portrait/self-portrait....

Then Glass jester, I'd thought was a woman because of his babybel cow with ear-rings.

....
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I'm lost. I thought Kingdom Rose was a girl and Rosenritter was a guy??? :confused:

I always thought LA was a guy, but then Patrick told me 'he' was a 'she' then Lazy said he was a guy... or at least was offended I said 'girl.'

I must also confess, I thought Keypurr was an old lady from his portrait/self-portrait....

Then Glass jester, I'd thought was a woman because of his babybel cow with ear-rings.

....

Maybe you are just a teddy-bear? Who can know?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I'm lost. I thought Kingdom Rose was a girl and Rosenritter was a guy??? :confused:

I always thought LA was a guy, but then Patrick told me 'he' was a 'she' then Lazy said he was a guy... or at least was offended I said 'girl.'

I must also confess, I thought Keypurr was an old lady from his portrait/self-portrait....

Then Glass jester, I'd thought was a woman because of his babybel cow with ear-rings.

....

You should have stayed lost on this one. Taking bits and pieces is not really cool.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Because it was the spirit of Samuel, like it says. Why do you believe it doesnt mean what it says?

Thats your problem, you read things into things that arent said, to support things the bible doesnt say.

Can you show me where the text says that it WAS the "spirit of Samuel?" I think you're reading that into the text. It says that Saul perceived it was Samuel. Because if the passage literally confirmed that this was indeed the actual Samuel, and not a familiar spirit, then this discussion wouldn't be necessary, would it?

1 Samuel 28:7 KJV
(7) Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I'm lost. I thought Kingdom Rose was a girl and Rosenritter was a guy??? :confused:

I always thought LA was a guy, but then Patrick told me 'he' was a 'she' then Lazy said he was a guy... or at least was offended I said 'girl.'

I must also confess, I thought Keypurr was an old lady from his portrait/self-portrait....

Then Glass jester, I'd thought was a woman because of his babybel cow with ear-rings.

....

I am a guy. I am married to a girl. I have a seven month old daughter.
 

Eagles Wings

New member
Dog gone it, EW, you really expect me to come up with a good condition this late at night?:hammer:
Hey, it is getting late, and I'm a bit goofy and off topic anyway.

Rejoicing that Christ is beloved Brother and Savior.

The saint will spend eternity in His presence.

What a day that will be, when my Jesus I shall see. (Lyrics by Jim Hill)
 
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