Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Derf]

Spoiler

[MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] ... ( [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... I encourage you to check the post as well...) You haven't replied to this LINK HERE yet. Also here... Link HERE Could you please look at this when you get a chance? I used the magnificent ear biter to continue our back and forth. Also ... [MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ... I'm beginning to articulate this matter more clearly... so this post and the 2 links missed by W2G would begin to go deeper into how I perceive it all binding together.

New... emphasized structural arguments in addition to current arguments...

1. Punishment is defined by scripture and death means to cease existence on a plane of existence.

Rm. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Wage and Punishment are synonymous here. Gift and Reward are synonymous as well.

We KNOW that The first death only kills the Flesh... and on that note... have you seen any zombies lately?

We know that the second death kills the Soul... According to Jesus.

There is a dishonesty about kill and death here. In this life... our dust ceases, but our souls go on. We leave this plane of existence though...

Is this disputed?

Jesus says this...

Mt. 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell​

My issue is that the word "Kill" is being blurred from its actual context when Jesus uses it. There is scripture adherence being demanded... but suddenly Killing the Soul or Destroying the Soul is literally being redefined exactly as Christ Deniers change "God" in John 1:1 to "a God".

This is not okay and it is a proof that intellectual dishonesty is occurring.

Killing a soul means to completely cease to exist.

If this were a lie, then killing of the body wouldn't mean that loved ones leave us on this "side" of things.

My point... A Divine Christilogical ... Dispensational ... Zionist ... Grace age believer in the afterlife, as in... Sheol or Heaven that sees "Annihilation" at the close of it all isn't redefining Eternal Life or Eternal Death... but the ECT crowd is.

Eternal Life or Eternal Death. This is plainly stated by Romans.

2. The Biggest of all ECT verses and it's issue...

Revelation 20:10*The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

The issue comes in here...

Rv. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.​

The old earth is bound to a euphemism for Death... and to say that is "Exists" is to deny the actual meaning of "Death".

Now... Day and night are no more in the New Earth and Heaven... by scripture... so there is a further issue with utilizing ECT to define Rev. 20:10.

Rv. 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever​

This is my issue with ECT... It fully goes against the Mercy nature of God and His asking us to "Love our Enemies".

3: Luke 16:1 - Luke 17:3 is Jesus speaking in parables. To even deny this is lying. This is indicative of "false doctrine". Also, dispensationally... the parable is about NOW... not at the close of all ages.

This is further reinforced by this...

Luke 16:26*And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’​

There is a "great gulf fixed". This is a reference to the sea of separation in death and this parable is about unbelieving Jews... in this Grace Age. Romans 11 makes it clear that this isn't a permanent gulf.

Also...

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.​

Notice it... "No more Sea".

More proof?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God,​

Sea of Glass... this is the place of separation that Christ is referring to in Luke 16 and it means that it is different dispensationally then... drum roll... Hell fire / The Lake.

4. Scripture emphatically prophesies the annihilation of Satan... For example

Isaiah 14

Spoiler

The Fall of Lucifer

12*
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13*
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14*
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15*
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16*
“Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17*
Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18*
“All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19*
But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20*
You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21*
Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.”

Babylon Destroyed

22*
“For I will rise up against them,” says the Lord of hosts,
“And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,
And offspring and posterity,” says the Lord.
23*
“I will also make it a possession for the porcupine,
And marshes of muddy water;
I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the Lord of hosts.

Assyria Destroyed

24*
The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying,
“Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass,
And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:
25*
That I will break the Assyrian in My land,
And on My mountains tread him underfoot.
Then his yoke shall be removed from them,
And his burden removed from their shoulders.
26*
This is the purpose that is purposed against the whole earth,
And this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations.
27*
For the Lord of hosts has purposed,
And who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
And who will turn it back?”

Philistia Destroyed

28*This is the burden which came in the year that King Ahaz died.
29*
“Do not rejoice, all you of Philistia,
Because the rod that struck you is broken;
For out of the serpent’s roots will come forth a viper,
And its offspring will be a fiery flying serpent.
30*
The firstborn of the poor will feed,
And the needy will lie down in safety;
I will kill your roots with famine,
And it will slay your remnant.
31*
Wail, O gate! Cry, O city!
All you of Philistia are dissolved;
For smoke will come from the north,
And no one will be alone in his appointed times.”
32*
What will they answer the messengers of the nation?
That the Lord has founded Zion,
And the poor of His people shall take refuge in it.

This coincides with the restoration of Zion and Israel... as well as The judgment.

It is dispensationally in support of MAD... but if MAD and the like deny it... it is a denial of the fate of the enemies of Israel.

The Devil is prophesied to be SLAIN and covered with ROTTING bodies... just as Gehenna has always meant.

This is only 1 of so many like it that dispensation and Annihilation are simultaneously irrefutable.

I'm not highlighting any of Isaiah 14 because the Judgment verbiage should be enormously clear that binds to "the day of the Lord... aka the great and terrible day." The order is very clear and for the record... "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day".

I re-assert that we are the Hell Fire and I now hunker down that the king of Sheol is a false king and some of his minions aren't His at all.

This is why I exemplify the follow verse from Jude 9

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”​

Now... note that body of Moses is likened unto "Body of Christ".

Case and point... "Lost sheep of Israel"... held in the Pit.

Jesus will break all of Israel free from "Slavery" one final time.

Case and point...

Romans 11

[MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] ... if you get a chance... please check this out. It is a continuation of posts I made earlier and answers to in going arguments that were in a postured loop.

I'm still off for now... but I wrote this up and figured I'd post it.

Ezekiel is a book that seems to be underreferenced here and that is a mistake.

All respect to all,

- EE

I'll need a few days to digest all of that.:dizzy:

 

[freelight]

Love ever holds the value of being, and does all to save or preserve LIFE........

Love ever holds the value of being, and does all to save or preserve LIFE........

How can 'death' be 'tormented' exactly?

Love does not inflict unbearable suffering on helpless creatures. Heck, the most sadistic of beings couldn't concoct something akin to this doctrine.

And they profess more than a 'God of love', but even a God that is love itself,...but dont see the brazen contradiction and dissonance of such a concept. It might behoove one to know the essence, will and character of 'God' before allowing a translation of religous script dictate or describe what 'God' is really like, because it is the Spirit and reality of Deity, its very will of Life itself, that is most fundamental in this consideration. This forces one to reconsider literal or illogical readings of a text to more probable, tenable interpretations which are consonant with the actual character of Deity, and not a misconstrual thereof.

~*~*~

ECT on trial

 

[glorydaz]

It is unconscionable to me, that anyone CAN reject the Lord Jesus Christ. How? James 1:17 How can anyone reject all and every good thing??? I realize they are unconvinced, by why eschew the representative of every good thing? :idunno:

Philippians 2:9-11Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

9 Therefore God raised him to the highest place
and gave him the name above every name;
10 that in honor of the name given Yeshua,
every knee will bow —
in heaven, on earth and under the earth —
11 and every tongue will acknowledge[a]
that Yeshua the Messiah is Adonai —
to the glory of God the Father.

Isaiah 45:23-24KJV
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.​

Makes no sense, but what else IS left if the Author of every good thing is rejected? To me, that has to be hell. If they 'live' forever, by their own choice, without access to every good thing they rejected, the end result would be a fire of one's own making. There are scriptures that suggest I'm not out-of-line, but I appreciate your incredulity. Mine is novel by idea, I agree.
Why then share it? Simply this: I too, had to come to a conclusion regarding ECT and the nature of a good God. If you look even at your own idea of annihilation, it is STILL a loss of all that is good in God, for eternity. Their dust will stand as a testament, for eternity, of their rejection, a fire all its own. IOW, I don't see an advantage to your theological perspective, even then. I don't think annihilation or conscious loss of God is of any advantage. In the one: None existence thus complete loss. In the other: Existence with complete loss but one desires in rejecting all that is good.

It depends on what preconceived notions you bring with you. We all do, but as we get older and spend more time with the Lord, I believe we see a bit deeper into the great truths of the Scripture. Do we really believe that God IS LOVE? Well, we don't buy the idea that man is not given the ability to come to Him (at least most of us don't). It would be against the very character of a loving and righteous God.

A few years back, I had an discussion with my daughter about this, and she was working with badly abused kids. We saw what happened to those kids as they grew up (even when they were rescued from their situation). We are all a product of growing up in a world of sin. God certainly knows this. He also knows there are so many people who never get a chance to hear the Gospel. They are left to just knowing He exists through the creation and His own mercy shown to us as we walk through this life...often alone, and unloved.

We know there is a resurrection of the just, and there is a resurrection of the unjust. Those "unjust" will be judged on what they have done in this life. Indeed, Jesus tells us "what you have done to the least of these, you've done to me." No matter how a person lives his life, the chances he has a good side is not that far-fetched. When I think back over all the people I have met in my life....even those who are total jerks, I see something in them. I see a picture of that person as a child. I see he was beaten and abused and treated like garbage. He got hard ....flat out survival mode. But, did he share his meal with someone in need? Did he love his mother and weep when she passed away?

I don't know how many will actually join the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon in the lake of fire, but I do know that death and hades will be thrown in there with them.

Will God write the names of those who fed the hungry into the book of life at the judgment. He just might.

 

[freelight]

Denying Love to uphold Dogma is anti-God.........

Denying Love to uphold Dogma is anti-God.........

How can 'death' be 'tormented' exactly?

Love does not inflict unbearable suffering on helpless creatures. Heck, the most sadistic of beings couldn't concoct something akin to this doctrine.

If we consider INFINITE LOVE..... the spirit, very nature and constitution of Love itself...I dont see how there could not be any will, motive or program that 'God' would impose to SUSTAIN a continual state of unmitigated suffering or penal punishment that is a form of 'everlasting punishing', TO NO END. Thats insane.

Some die hard dogmatists will say I and others are just falling back to our 'emotions' over what some passages say 'literally', but all aspects and dimensions of any 'assumption' or postulation must be evaluated/researched in full context. - Beyond the obvious insanity of ECT, what you have are just circular speculations and attempted explanations of 'terms' and 'meanings', since so much is involved in what factors determine a soul's condition and destiny at any moment in time, and ultimately in eternity.

 

[Rosenritter]

Agreed, it's a mess and it's hard to keep up with. By the way, is it just me or does "next unread" not always take to the next unread but skip way too far sometimes?

I will say this. There are too many long, long posts in this thread. It's a mess.

 

[Arthur Brain]

And they profess more than a 'God of love', but even a God that is love itself,...but dont see the brazen contradiction and dissonance of such a concept. It might behoove one to know the essence, will and character of 'God' before allowing a translation of religous script dictate or describe what 'God' is really like, because it is the Spirit and reality of Deity, its very will of Life itself, that is most fundamental in this consideration. This forces one to reconsider literal or illogical readings of a text to more probable, tenable interpretations which are consonant with the actual character of Deity, and not a misconstrual thereof.

~*~*~

ECT on trial

Of which there are plenty. I'll bet every person who believes in this horror has at some point felt some excruciating pain in their own life, even if for only a very limited period or so. How cold and callous would someone have to be to believe that love would effectively cocoon someone in a state of interminable, unbearable suffering?

 

[Rosenritter]

Hello there Angel.

Some people would tell you that whether God kills or preserves the fallen angels has no relation on how would treat humans. I don't agree with that: both men and angels are his creation, and His character is reflected in his judgment. If the lake of fire is meant to preserve, it will preserve angel and man alike. But if it is meant to destroy, likewise it will destroy as God has promised it will do.

I would ask you to consider a couple things you where you might have assumed otherwise:

1. The Bible never says the devil is immortal. To the contrary, we are told that Jesus only hath immortality, and that for anyone else to receive immortality it is received as a gift. It is not something innate within us, and it is a blessing, not a curse.

2. The Bible tells us in very descriptive terms that the devil will be judged and slain at the end of the world, that he will stand before the kings of the world that he manipulated that will marvel that he has been made as weak as them, and that the end result of that judgment is that he and all his seed shall be destroyed utterly. Words are used as as slain, fire brought forth in his midst, reduced to ashes upon the earth, covered with worms, devoured, and never being any more.

3. God has a reason for delaying the devil's destruction in the judgment. The devil is the adversary of all who ever lived, he has deceived the world, and he shall be the last to be destroyed. I don't know how long it takes to judge the whole population of the world, multiplied by every generation that has ever lived. I bet it takes a long time. It has to take some time, because it has to be observed by humans that live within normal time.

4, In our Bible, a very long indeterminate period time is for ever, and does not mean that an action continues past the duration of its object. If the Bible says that in that judgment the devil shall be tormented "for ever" it means that this torment continues for the rest of his existence. Fortunately, we have proof that this is what the Bible means when it speaks in that fashion, from the law of Moses:

Exodus 21:6 KJV
(6) Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

The servant shall serve his master for ever, within the normal scope of their existence. Likewise, making the devil as weak as those he used to terrorize and holding him in judgment, delivering him into torment for ever does not make him immortal or unable to be destroyed. If God already said he will destroy the devil, he will do it.

So here's the part to consider: if the fires of judgment are promised to utterly destroy the most powerful devil in existence, that he will never be any more, should we think that those described as mortal men shall live any longer?

Ezekiel 28:17-19 KJV
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Only God hath immortality, it says. I have no idea how long this judgment takes, and even if each person received only five minutes for the judgment of their life, the devil would still be there a very long time.... for ever is really the best descriptive. But it doesn't mean the devil comes out of it alive. Not when God has already prophesied to the contrary.

Now if the devil doesn't come out of it alive, shall mortal men live forever? God has already promised to "reduce to ashes" who shall be burnt up as chaff and brambles, so should we expect that they would survive what the devil does not?

No it isnt. It goes right along with this:

Revelation 20:10

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[glorydaz]

Of which there are plenty. I'll bet every person who believes in this horror has at some point felt some excruciating pain in their own life, even if for only a very limited period or so. How cold and callous would someone have to be to believe that love would effectively cocoon someone in a state of interminable, unbearable suffering?

Well, there are people who suffer torment their whole life on earth. :idunno:

Matthew 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.​

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.​

 

[freelight]

Of which there are plenty. I'll bet every person who believes in this horror has at some point felt some excruciating pain in their own life, even if for only a very limited period or so. How cold and callous would someone have to be to believe that love would effectively cocoon someone in a state of interminable, unbearable suffering?

Thank 'God' he gave each soul a 'conscience' and his own spirit within so that one can know love, and love's will. Sadly some dont trust this inward light of God and would rather 'theologize' or impose some translation of words to define God as something that the spirit of God is wholly against or incapable of committing. In this or any case...cognitive dissidance sets in, but truth would inspire one to then seek for some other resolution or comprehending insight into the greater context of the soul's freedom of choice within divine providence and how divine love and wisdom guide the soul homeward towards healing and wholeness, unless free will could choose otherwise to effect its own demise or eternal death, 'death' in this case being a 'disintegration' of conscious existence. At least in this fullest sense of 'soul-death', a soul that has embraced iniquity whole-heartedly to the point of no return (exhausting all opportunity of repentance), is extinguished, dissolved back into the elements, back into the OverSoul of Creation. This is much more reasonable or merciful, than imposing an eternity of conscious 'suffering' upon a soul for all eternity, again TO NO END. - also at least in Universal Reconciliation,....all souls are eventually/ultimately saved by the Christ, love ultimately prevails, the divine will triumphs!

ECT is a bane to the human soul, and could only cast a dark shadow over not only the human heart, but the very face of God.

It is abominable.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Well, there are people who suffer torment their whole life on earth. :idunno:

Matthew 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.​

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.​

Do you consider any of this justification for people suffering horrendous, unending pain? Explain to me where there is any love in that.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Thank 'God' he gave each soul a 'conscience' and his own spirit within so that one can know love, and love's will. Sadly some dont trust this inward light of God and would rather 'theologize' or impose some translation of words to define God as something that the spirit of God is wholly against or incapable of committing. In this or any case...cognitive dissidance sets in, but truth would inspire one to then seek for some other resolution or comprehending insight into the greater context of the soul's freedom of choice within divine providence and how divine love and wisdom guide the soul homeward towards healing and wholeness, unless free will could choose otherwise to effect its own demise or eternal death, 'death' in this case being a 'disintegration' of conscious existence. At least in this fullest sense of 'soul-death', a soul that has embraced iniquity whole-heartedly to the point of no return (exhausting all opportunity of repentance), is extinguished, dissolved back into the elements, back into the OverSoul of Creation. This is much more reasonable or merciful, than imposing an eternity of conscious 'suffering' upon a soul for all eternity, again TO NO END. - also at least in Universal Reconciliation,....all souls are eventually/ultimately saved by the Christ, love ultimately prevails, the divine will triumphs!

ECT is a bane to the human soul, and could only cast a dark shadow over not only the human heart, but the very face of God.

It is abominable.

I'll bet anyone who believes in it would cry out for mercy if they were to be the ones to have their own selves 'burned'. It's insidious beyond words and sad also because it makes monsters out of people...

 

[Rosenritter]

There seems to be a point of misunderstanding... I'll try to be constructive.

Valhalla is a Norse hell. Hades is the Greek hell. Dante's Inferno is a satirical Catholic hell. They may each be examples of hell, but they aren't the same. They are constructs of cultural mythology. Even the English word hell has a corresponding deity named "Hel" (although I think it ultimately derived from the Hebrew "sheol.")

Even if words have pagan origins doesn't mean they aren't adopted into the language in other normal fashions. I'll use a well known example: the New Testament uses the same word for Jew's Passover as would be be also used for the pagan Easter (Greek doesn't have a separate word for the Jewish passover.) That doesn't mean that they are the same, it just means that the meaning of the word must be determined by context.

With Passover, the closest word to the Hebrew "pesach" is the Greek "pascha." With hell, the closest word to the Hebrew "sheol" is "hades." In Greek, hades can mean either the general state of death or the tomb or grave, but it also has the mythological realm of the dead meaning that we would use a capital letter for, i.e. "Hades." The "sheol" equivalent of "hades" and "Hades" are not the same concepts.

Your answers seem to assume that these are interchangeable. Even a Greek atheist could speak of "hades" without meaning anything supernatural or giving the idea that he believed Hades was in charge of an ethereal underworld. That's just the way the word is used.

When Peter says that the soul of Jesus was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption (Acts 2:31) I don't think it means that Jesus was in the Greek underworld ruled by the Greek god Hades. I think it far more likely that Peter means it in the same sense as the Hebrew sheol, which is simply the general term for death and the grave. Christ was buried in the earth, his soul was left in hell for three days and three nights.

... so cutting to the point, just because the word hell (or hades, in the Greek) occurs within the New Testament does not mean it is the same as the satirical Hades that Christ used as a backdrop for a pointed parable. There is also the plain normal use of the well that has no such connotation. It is usually the safer method of Biblical interpretation to assume that words carry their normal ordinary meaning unless the context demands otherwise.

Likewise, consider when Revelation prophesies that death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. You can't literally pick up a location or an underworld and toss it into a lake, but it could very well imply that those that are slain (death and hell) are thrown into that fire to be permanently burnt up and destroyed.

Revelation 20:13-14 KJV
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Verse 13 treats death, hell, and the sea as being the same type of thing, and it is in verse 14 that death and hell are thrown into fire. Why not the sea? Because God isn't going to slay anyone by water in the judgment. But if you assume a supernatural realm of conscious ghosts is the meaning of hell, then why is the sea in that statement?

Well, I can.... :think: Hades is mentioned in scripture with Gehenna as it's Hebrew counterpart, as far as my concept of them. Also, Abraham's Bosom, by concept, was the same thing as Paradise, in that Abraham was there, and as I understand it. Part of this depends on whether my whole concept of life-after-death both for trusting Jews before Christ, and Christians afterward, and conversely those who eschew Him, being Hades/Paradise, now Hades/Heaven; is right. So, there are scriptures that mention hades prior to this, as well as Paradise, if you'd grant that Abraham's bosom is the same, being that he was there. :e4e: -Lon

 

[Rosenritter]

We addressed that question yesterday. At the rate that this thread travels, you should be able to find it if you dig back a couple thousand posts... would you mind if I answer in short form, and you can inquire about any specific point if you feel it needs more backing?

1) Why then are the dead resurrected to receive judgement if eternal death is the punishment, itself?

Justice demands a chance for judgment. God has also said that he does not reject sincere repentance. Revelation 20 itself indicates that although some who are raised to that judgment of condemnation are cast into the fire, some are written in the book of life and enter into the holy city. Revelation 20:15 (the dead in Christ were already resurrected 1000 years previous...)

2. Why not leave the dead- forever dead, if thats the punishment as you say?

A final judgment gives the opportunity for closure. No one will have to wonder why this person or that person had to be destroyed. No one will wonder "what happened to that mass murderer, he just faded away?" Justice requires transparency.

A final judgment gives the opportunity to show mercy. God is merciful, and not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but is willing that they repent and change their way. The thief on the cross was given the promise that he would be with Jesus in paradise when Christ comes into His Kingdom.

* How long was the thief on that cross before he died?

* How long does God need to be able to judge the difference between faked and sincere changes of heart?

* How can one have faith in Jesus if you have never heard of him and never heard his name?

3. What happens in the lake of fire?

The devil is cast into the fire, brought low before kings of the earth, his seed is cut off and destroyed, and finally he is burnt up, reduced to ashes, and shall never be any more. The wicked are destroyed, reduced to ashes upon the earth, destroyed as brute beasts.

Does fire physically torment the devil? I doubt that's the real source of torment. You should see how people rage on these forum boards when they are allowed to talk smack at their opponents. You don't get to smack talk God as you are judged justly, and each and every one of your evil prodigies are judged and destroyed in turn. Worse and most angering yet, the devil would be even more furious that others might pass into eternal life. That's his nature.

And that's exactly why he has no further place in God's kingdom after the judgment. That's why God has prophesied that he will be burnt up.

To the ones who believe that death itself is eternal:

Why then are the dead resurrected to receive judgement if eternal death is the punishment, itself?


Daniel 12:2

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29 and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.…

Why not leave the dead- forever dead, if thats the punishment as you say?

It says those judged unrighteous, will be cast into the lake of fire (revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.)


which it says is what the second death is:

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

Why was death placed into the lake of fire too, if death itself is the punishment? Again, they are ressurected to life, before being punished.

What happens in the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Rosenritter]

The psalm says that if someone is alive and has breath, they can praise God. If you can praise God, you can also reject him. Can you think of any practical reason why God would specifically "not allow" someone who was sincerely repentant to repent?

Also, you referenced Mark 9 as if it supported the "never dying people tormented in hell" theory. However, that passage is sourced from a prophecy in Isaiah of the world to come, and that it is carcasses of the dead that are shown consumed by worms and fire, not living (or conscious) souls?

Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

This is a sight that can be seen by those upon the earth. It's not in a ghostly netherworld. It is carcasses being burnt up and destroyed, not preserved while writhing or wailing. If Jesus meant otherwise, why would he invoke this image from Isaiah?

I guess you're saying that the rich man is symbolic of the rejection of Jesus, the only means of salvation, by the nation of Judah as a whole, who claimed to cling to Moses and the prophets, but in reality were basing their salvation in their works, and denying the salvific power of faith, as represented by Abraham, whose faith was reckoned righteousness.

And I suppose I can also see that "Judah" is outside the kingdom, while many others are within, similar to Matt 8:11, 12.

But while Jesus may have been talking about the nation of Judah, it was mainly because of, and directed at, the leaders, and the impact they were having on His ministry and their own future by their rejection of Him. This can be seen in a number of other verses, like Matt 23:37 (directed at the seat of authority of Judea), and Mark 11 and 12 wherein are named the different groups of leaders (I found the sixth brother here!): chief priests, scribes, and elders in Mark 11:27, Pharisees and Herodians added in Mark 12:13, and Sadducees complete the list in 12:18.

So I still think it's a stretch that the brothers were Judah's brothers. Yet it's not too important who they are if we agree Jesus is referring to those that believe they have a lock on the kingdom of God.

And despite the irony you see in Jews being in a Greek hell, it doesn't mean that such a hell doesn't exist. The discussion then becomes, as @Lon and I both pointed out, "Did Jesus give a false portrayal of our post-life condition in His attempt to explain an unrelated subject?"

That's where we go to other scripture to determine if there is something akin to the place of torment the rich man finds himself in. And yes, there is, if the descriptions in Mark 9:43-48 and Rev 14:10,11 and 20:10,15 can be taken literally.

Rev 20:15 segues nicely to your next comment:


I think I like your description here, though I might take issue with a couple of things.

First, (here's your "earlier passages" post for reference), I don't think your list of verses can necessarily be applied to post-death circumstances. The ones that are in the book of life might already be repentant before they died, even without a full (or even partial?) saving knowledge of Christ.

My second issue is that this:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [Rev 20:4 KJV]​

seems to be limited to only those that were killed or at least persecuted because of their tenacious clinging to Christ through persecution. 2 Tim 2:12 intimates something similar.

There's also a mention in that verse of a group ("they") sitting on thrones with judgment given to them. These might be those that Paul referred to in 1 Cor 6:3. Might also fit in with a pre-trib rapture construct.

If the first resurrection is limited to the persecuted, then it allows for believers (perhaps from time periods with no persecution, or perhaps that weren't the greatest witnesses for Christ on earth, as in Jude 23), already written in the book of life, to be resurrected in the second.

The story of rich man/Lazarus is a good example of the inability to repent afterwards, though not the only one.

If instead the "first resurrection" mentioned in Rev 20:4 requires judges to be there before they are resurrected, then perhaps all of the Christians have been resurrected prior to the second judgment.

I suppose, though, that in either case there are potential believers, say from the old testament times, that could be offered the choice. I'm open to the idea.

At the end of all this, though, I'm not sure we've moved any closer to determining if ECT is biblical or not, as the lake of fire could be either temporary or permanent no matter what we decide above. The loss of the rich man/Lazarus story to the ECT proofs might be conceded without losing complete scriptural support.

 

[Rosenritter]

There is an argument called "the thorny problem of evil" which suggests that there cannot be a good God because evil exists. If God cared about us, he would intervene and stop every evil from occurring before it could happen. How could a good God allow bad things to happen to innocent people?

I know that this isn't God's world now. He gave it to us when we demanded to know the difference between good and evil, rather than trusting in Him to begin with. The world has been given over to his rebellious creation, and we receive the results of that. If we didn't see it ourselves, we wouldn't believe what we are capable of. God is coming to take his world back, and this time he will keep it for good and without end.

But what of the innocents that we harmed? So here's the question: do we believe that God has the ability to heal damage, in mind and body and spirit? I once hurt myself badly from falling from a bicycle, but I have healed that damage completely. I am not traumatized. God not only can heal that damage that all have suffered, but he has promised that he will do exactly that. Those that are killed He can bring to life, those that have been hurt he can heal, and those that will not have him reign over them he can destroy.

I actually believe God when he says that there will be no more pain, nor suffering, and he shall wipe away every tear. There is no reason for evil to exist any longer at that point. If someone cannot be redeemed, there is no point in giving them life any longer. What would be the point?

Well, there are people who suffer torment their whole life on earth. :idunno:

Matthew 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.​

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.​

 

[freelight]

I stand on principles........

I stand on principles........

I'll bet anyone who believes in it would cry out for mercy if they were to be the ones to have their own selves 'burned'.

Definitely. Somehow I intuit that love of God would extend mercy to any soul truly calling out to God, re-turning to God, who will show abundant mercy to a truly repentant soul. Thats kinda how love acts :thumb:

It's insidious beyond words and sad also because it makes monsters out of people...

Yes, in such a twisted theology, the believer in it reflects the sadist psychology, which eventually can lead to 'suicide' or a path of inflicting torture upon whoever it counts as an enemy to God, so that its double insanity just culminates.

But hey,...who needs principles? Who cares about values? Its kinda like a "shoot em all, let God sort em out" mentality, but here you get to delight in the wicked getting their due justice, only this so called justice is worse than 'over-kill', since the sufferers cant actually DIE! (in this respect, soul-death in the full and final sense is a merciful provision which is a natural consequence of free will choosing to fully reject God, the full harvest of iniquity, being DEATH (destruction/disintegration/termination of existence). - in this light, as in former commentary, I still give 'soul-death' a possibility. Universalism also has some supports from scripture and philosophically speaking, but in the greater cosmic perspective...in context of the whole,...there are pros and cons, and some unknowns relating to all perspectives. What we have at last to count on are eternal values, principles and ethics...as these pertain and operate in the courts of heaven and earth, where the gods weigh the scales of justice/mercy as mediated to individuals and societies.

This is just one symptom of 'sola scriptura' and 'biblical innerrancy'....taking all passages so literal as to confuse or complicate a comprehension of what is really being communicated as its full understanding is modified by other factors beyond just the literature, by values and principles themselves, which are the eternal arbiters in the end.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you consider any of this justification for people suffering horrendous, unending pain? Explain to me where there is any love in that.

I'll not question whatever it is God does. I'm only here discussing as others are.

 

[glorydaz]

There is an argument called "the thorny problem of evil" which suggests that there cannot be a good God because evil exists. If God cared about us, he would intervene and stop every evil from occurring before it could happen. How could a good God allow bad things to happen to innocent people?

I know that this isn't God's world now. He gave it to us when we demanded to know the difference between good and evil, rather than trusting in Him to begin with. The world has been given over to his rebellious creation, and we receive the results of that. If we didn't see it ourselves, we wouldn't believe what we are capable of. God is coming to take his world back, and this time he will keep it for good and without end.

But what of the innocents that we harmed? So here's the question: do we believe that God has the ability to heal damage, in mind and body and spirit? I once hurt myself badly from falling from a bicycle, but I have healed that damage completely. I am not traumatized. God not only can heal that damage that all have suffered, but he has promised that he will do exactly that. Those that are killed He can bring to life, those that have been hurt he can heal, and those that will not have him reign over them he can destroy.

I actually believe God when he says that there will be no more pain, nor suffering, and he shall wipe away every tear. There is no reason for evil to exist any longer at that point. If someone cannot be redeemed, there is no point in giving them life any longer. What would be the point?

Rev. 21:3-5
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[way 2 go]

@way 2 go ...
New... emphasized structural arguments in addition to current arguments...

1. Punishment is defined by scripture and death means to cease existence on a plane of existence.

Rm. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.-
​

Wage and Punishment are synonymous here. Gift and Reward are synonymous as well.EE

death does not mean cease to exist.

Mat_8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

We KNOW that The first death only kills the Flesh... and on that note... have you seen any zombies lately?

spiritual death is first , Adam died the day he ate from the tree
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

We know that the second death kills the Soul... According to Jesus.

spirit is already dead unless born again

There is a dishonesty about kill and death here. In this life... our dust ceases, but our souls go on. We leave this plane of existence though...
Is this disputed?

Jesus says this...

Mt. 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell​

our spirits go on,

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment

My issue is that the word "Kill" is being blurred from its actual context when Jesus uses it. There is scripture adherence being demanded... but suddenly Killing the Soul or Destroying the Soul is literally being redefined exactly as Christ Deniers change "God" in John 1:1 to "a God".

This is not okay and it is a proof that intellectual dishonesty is occurring.

Killing a soul means to completely cease to exist.

If this were a lie, then killing of the body wouldn't mean that loved ones leave us on this "side" of things.

you don't have a point here because Jesus switches from the word kill to destroy . destroy = ruin

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rom 14:15 But if your brother is grieved with your food, you no longer walk according to love. Do not with your food destroy him for whom Christ died.

This is my issue with ECT... It fully goes against the Mercy nature of God and His asking us to "Love our Enemies".

is salvation offered to satan ?

3: Luke 16:1 - Luke 17:3 is Jesus speaking in parables. To even deny this is lying. This is indicative of "false doctrine". Also, dispensationally... the parable is about NOW... not at the close of all ages.

This is further reinforced by this...

Luke 16:26*And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’​

There is a "great gulf fixed". This is a reference to the sea of separation in death and this parable is about unbelieving Jews... in this Grace Age. Romans 11 makes it clear that this isn't a permanent gulf.

Also...

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
​

Notice it... "No more Sea".

More proof?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God,
​

Sea of Glass... this is the place of separation that Christ is referring to in Luke 16 and it means that it is different dispensationally then... drum roll... Hell fire / The Lake.

Jesus only talked about things that actually exist
consciousness after death and fire that does not consume.

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

4. Scripture emphatically prophesies the annihilation of Satan... For example

no it doesn't

Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[way 2 go]

. Way 2 Go might remember. He was all cheering and approval at first because he assumed I was Eternal Conscious Torment for a while.

never believed you were for ECT