Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Cross Reference said:
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" 2 Peter 2:4 (KJV)

Why not ask yourself: "Gee, I wonder how long some have been already there"?
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If one uses scripture as any guide, the devils that sinned were cast down from heaven, and still roam this earth. Perhaps God killed some and let others roam about for the time being. They will all stand before judgment. Do you have a problem with that?

Cross Reference said:
And then:

". . . the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10 (KJV)

Followed by:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV)
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And scripture also tells us that "for ever" has a finite duration when applied to a finite subject. Do you want the passages that prove the meaning of the term? Or do you feel like doing a little bit of work and finding them yourself? Here, I'll help. I don't think you're actually interested in proving things without assistance...

Exo 21:6 KJV
(6) Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

The devil is a finite subject. God has already declared quite clearly that he will destroy the devil with fire at the end of the world. Revelation is not written by a different God, you're expected to know what he has promised already by his prophets. So regardless of how long it takes to judge the world "forever and ever" the devil doesn't make it out of it alive.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Rosenritter said:
If one uses scripture as any guide, the devils that sinned were cast down from heaven, and still roam this earth. Perhaps God killed some and let others roam about for the time being. They will all stand before judgment. Do you have a problem with that?



And scripture also tells us that "for ever" has a finite duration when applied to a finite subject. Do you want the passages that prove the meaning of the term? Or do you feel like doing a little bit of work and finding them yourself? Here, I'll help. I don't think you're actually interested in proving things without assistance...

Exo 21:6 KJV
(6) Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

The devil is a finite subject. God has already declared quite clearly that he will destroy the devil with fire at the end of the world. Revelation is not written by a different God, you're expected to know what he has promised already by his prophets. So regardless of how long it takes to judge the world "forever and ever" the devil doesn't make it out of it alive.
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Phooey. You don't know anything and refuse to desire to. I cannot any longer abide your displays of willful ignorance;, "mental graffiti runamuck"..
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Cross Reference said:
Phooey. You don't know anything and refuse to desire to. I cannot any longer abide your displays of willful ignorance;, "mental graffiti runamuck"..
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You prove yourself insincere. If you were sincere and legitimate, you would find a segment that you doubted and demand scriptural proof. As I do for you. Except you don't answer from scripture, and you won't ask me for scripture. I think that does tend to show where your priorities are.

I thought I saw this earlier, but it got lost. Were you asking why anyone would want to follow God if their soul could be destroyed? Or something like that? There is an answer, but I'm amazed at such a question. I've a word for you. "Resurrection." As William Tyndale so well stated,

"The true faith putteth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it."

And in the words of Paul,

1 Corinthians 15:32 KJV
(32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

If you are just here to argue, you might as well leave. The folk here are well enough grounded in scripture that you're not going to fool them with shows of abrasiveness and the typical "because I said so" argument style. If you want us to think that you think that you have biblical grounds then at least pretend to answers questions by scripture. But for that you'd have to submit yourself to answering questions.

I'd rather you were of a mind to stay, of course. But you've got some questions to answer.
 
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marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Timotheos said:
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.
The Bible does not say that the wages of sin is to be tortured alive forever in hell. You have to want to believe that. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but you don't want to believe that the wages of sin really is death. So you keep your head in a hole so that you can believe your cherished doctrine of torture.

Seriously, What does Romans 6:23 say in YOUR Bible? Open your eyes and read it. Post what you find here.
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Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Also

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ...

And then this when we've known God and we go wrong and turn back to our fleshly lives. (Below)

Jude

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: cloudsthey arewithout water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots


I believe that this death is the wages of sin, being dead in our transgressions again this is the death that Paul means. We were dead, then made alive in Christ, and if we go back our old life and sinful ways then the wages of sin is death, being dead to God as we were before.

I know many don't believe in this, and they think that they're eternally saved by just saying "I believe" but that's not what it says in the Bible and Jesus himself tells us that we are to deny ourselves and we are to become a living sacrifice to God. And we are to turn from sin.

Romans 11

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 
T

Timotheos

New member
marhig said:
Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Also

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ...

And then this when we've known God and we go wrong and turn back to our fleshly lives. (Below)

Jude

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: cloudsthey arewithout water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots


I believe that this death is the wages of sin, being dead in our transgressions again this is the death that Paul means. We were dead, then made alive in Christ, and if we go back our old life and sinful ways then the wages of sin is death, being dead to God as we were before.

I know many don't believe in this, and they think that they're eternally saved by just saying "I believe" but that's not what it says in the Bible and Jesus himself tells us that we are to deny ourselves and we are to become a living sacrifice to God. And we are to turn from sin.

Romans 11

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
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You didn't post what Romans 6:23 says. Neither did C.Reference.
If Paul MEANT "the wages of sin is eternal torture" why did he SAY the opposite of that?
 
T

Timotheos

New member
Cross Reference said:
What is certain to me is that you have ignored scripture, that testifies against you, simply to protect your religious 'untoward' bent so much so you have become a fanatic. I think you probably like to hug trees as well.

Take your argument up with Jesus.
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I haven't ignored scripture. You are ignoring scripture.
What does Romans 6:23 say in your Bible?

I HAVE taken this with Jesus. He said "Ignore them they are blind leaders of the blind."
The reason you can't understand that the wages of sin is death is because you have been blinded by the serpent's lie that nobody will perish. You should repent of your unbelief. Why don't you turn to Jesus and ask Him to show you the truth?
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Rosenritter said:
You prove yourself insincere. .
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Spare me yours.

I will not abide your obstinate migraine stupidity. You have all the scripture from Bible, to which you have never received to yourself to answer for, that you are going get from me.

Your problem runs deep in you and your sidekicks that require someone or something higher than me to happen to you to get your attention. I will pray to that end before your souls leave your bodies to fall into that dark bottomless, as in 'having no bottom', pit that awaits you..
 
T

Timotheos

New member
Cross Reference said:
Spare me yours.

I will not abide your obstinate migraine stupidity. You have all the scripture from Bible, to which you have never received to yourself to answer for, that you are going get from me.

Your problem runs deep in you and your sidekicks that require someone or something higher than me to happen to you to get your attention. I will pray to that end before your souls leave your bodies to fall into that dark bottomless, as in 'having no bottom', pit that awaits you..
Click to expand...

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. I pray that someday you will accept this.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
marhig said:
Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Also

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ...

And then this when we've known God and we go wrong and turn back to our fleshly lives. (Below)

Jude

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: cloudsthey arewithout water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots


I believe that this death is the wages of sin, being dead in our transgressions again this is the death that Paul means. We were dead, then made alive in Christ, and if we go back our old life and sinful ways then the wages of sin is death, being dead to God as we were before.

I know many don't believe in this, and they think that they're eternally saved by just saying "I believe" but that's not what it says in the Bible and Jesus himself tells us that we are to deny ourselves and we are to become a living sacrifice to God. And we are to turn from sin.

Romans 11

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Click to expand...

All good stuff, marhig. Problem is they refuse to enter into the spiritural sense of God to abide the understanding of Paul, i.e., being dead yet still walking around in a body of flesh, soon to be left behind.
 
R

rstrats

Active member
Cross Reference,

re: "I will pray to that end before your souls leave your bodies to fall into that dark bottomless, as in 'having no bottom', pit that awaits you.."

Any thoughts on where this pit with no bottom might be? And because it's dark, where the fire that has been mentioned comes in?
 
T

Timotheos

New member
Cross Reference said:
All good stuff, marhig. Problem is they refuse to enter into the spiritural sense of God to abide the understanding of Paul, i.e., being dead yet still walking around in a body of flesh, soon to be left behind.
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I am a Christian, not a Spiritist. I believe in the resurrection of the body and everlasting life for those who believe.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Timotheos said:
I am a Christian, not a Spiritist. I believe in the resurrection of the body and everlasting life for those who believe.
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As I am as well: "I believe in the resurrection of the body and everlasting life for those who believe" and everlasting death for those who don't.

Seems we believe the same thing after all.

Thank you Lord for answering so fast, my prayer.
 
T

Timotheos

New member
Cross Reference said:
As I am as well: "I believe in the resurrection of the body and everlasting life for those who believe" and everlasting death for those who don't.

Seems we believe the same thing after all.

Thank you Lord for answering so fast, my prayer.
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Yes, It is good that you no longer believe the Satanic Doctrine of eternal conscious torture in hell.
 
lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
Timotheos said:
Why don't you give up trying to twist John 3:16 around backwards in order to somehow make it support the dogma you like best, eternal torture?
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Who in the world enjoy 'eternal torture'. Christ Jesus died on the Cross of Calvary so that no one need to go there.

Separation from God = eternal torture for those who reject God's plan of Salvation.
However, by the time they get to the other side and they realize what they have done, it is too late.

Therefore, if today, you hear His voice, do not harden your heart.
 
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