Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[chrysostom]

Mr Reference can't seem to understand John 3:16

it is as clear as it can be unless it doesn't fit your preconceived notions

 

[Timotheos]

it is as clear as it can be unless it doesn't fit your preconceived notions

Yes, those who believe in eternal conscious torment in hell are more than willing to throw any verse completely out of the Bible when it doesn't fit their cherished doctrine, even John 3:16.

 

[Cross Reference]

From Timothesus

Does your dictionary have any entries for the words "Death", "Destruction", "perish", or "life"?

Mine does! Do you want to discuss the meaning of those words as well, or are you going to tell me I'm using the wrong dictionary? (A popular trick of the torment crowd!)

I have given her and her crowd; many verses she has ignored.

Here is a repeat 'gift' of some that because they, on face value, need no more to explain them, she might want to rethink to understand her error:


23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luke 16:23-25 (KJV)

No parabale in that do I see.

And then to those people who receive the "mark of the beast":

"9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)

One More Time:

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:9-10 (KJV)

Notice the word "DEVOURED" as God "destroyed" them as in they "perished" because of what He had done that would bring about the end of the 'existence'.

THIS ENDS MY PART IN THIS DISCUSSION UNLESS YOU SAY, "NOW I UNDERSTAND".

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes, those who believe in eternal conscious torment in hell are more than willing to throw any verse completely out of the Bible when it doesn't fit their cherished doctrine, even John 3:16.

Cherished?? Why would I want to see anyone eternally tormented?? Please, give me your reasoning for that from you. I promise I will not laugh.

 

[rstrats]

Cross Reference,
re: " Why would I want to see anyone eternally tormented??"


Because that makes the most sense. Since there are zero scriptures that say that the fate of the unsaved is to be tortured for eternity, why else would you try to find scriptures to support such an evil doctrine?

 

[Ben Masada]

Cross Reference,
re: " Why would I want to see anyone eternally tormented??"


Because that makes the most sense. Since there are zero scriptures that say that the fate of the unsaved is to be tortured for eternity, why else would you try to find scriptures to support such an evil doctrine?

The truth does make one feel good!

 

[Cross Reference]

Cross Reference,
re: " Why would I want to see anyone eternally tormented??"


Because that makes the most sense. Since there are zero scriptures that say that the fate of the unsaved is to be tortured for eternity, why else would you try to find scriptures to support such an evil doctrine?

YOU and your dupes, dude, are ones who are searching for them and in your dishonest determination, ignoring those scriptures that say you are "all wet" but you nevertheless continue to protect your 'bent' by keeping your head in a hole., not me.

 

[Timotheos]

Cherished?? Why would I want to see anyone eternally tormented?? Please, give me your reasoning for that from you. I promise I will not laugh.

I believe that you like the doctrine of eternal torment because that is the doctrine of your church. Notice that I said "The Cherished Doctrine" and not "The Cherished thought of someone being eternally tormented alive or tortured alive." I do not believe that you are a sadist. I believe that you can't stand the thought that your church might be wrong about something that you have believed for so long.

I answered your question, so now please answer one of mine. If the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is not "the beloved doctrine" why do you argue for it so much, even to the point of ignoring and twisting scripture? I mean, obviously John 3:16 says "Whosoever believes in him shall not PERISH (please notice the word perish this time) but will have ETERNAL LIFE (and also notice that there is a condition to receiving eternal life, belief).

It seems to be extremely (extreeeemmmmmllllyyyy) important to you that some people will be tortured in hell. Why don't YOU tell ME why you would want to see anyone be eternally tormented?

Why even go to the doctrine of eternal conscious torture in hell when the Bible is so clear that the wicked will perish instead?

 

[Timotheos]

YOU and your dupes, dude, are ones who is searching for them and in your dishonest determination, ignoring those scriptures that say you are "all wet" but you nevertheless continue to protect your 'bent' by keeping your head in a hole., not me.

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.
The Bible does not say that the wages of sin is to be tortured alive forever in hell. You have to want to believe that. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but you don't want to believe that the wages of sin really is death. So you keep your head in a hole so that you can believe your cherished doctrine of torture.

Seriously, What does Romans 6:23 say in YOUR Bible? Open your eyes and read it. Post what you find here.

 

[Cross Reference]

I believe that you like the doctrine of eternal torment because that is the doctrine of your church. Notice that I said "The Cherished Doctrine" and not "The Cherished thought of someone being eternally tormented alive or tortured alive." I do not believe that you are a sadist. I believe that you can't stand the thought that your church might be wrong about something that you have believed for so long.

I answered your question, so now please answer one of mine. If the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is not "the beloved doctrine" why do you argue for it so much, even to the point of ignoring and twisting scripture? I mean, obviously John 3:16 says "Whosoever believes in him shall not PERISH (please notice the word perish this time) but will have ETERNAL LIFE (and also notice that there is a condition to receiving eternal life, belief).

It seems to be extremely (extreeeemmmmmllllyyyy) important to you that some people will be tortured in hell. Why don't YOU tell ME why you would want to see anyone be eternally tormented?

Why even go to the doctrine of eternal conscious torture in hell when the Bible is so clear that the wicked will perish instead?

What is certain to me is that you have ignored scripture, that testifies against you, simply to protect your religious 'untoward' bent so much so you have become a fanatic. I think you probably like to hug trees as well.

Take your argument up with Jesus.

 

[ok doser]

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.

rev 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are ....who?

Spoiler

the dead?

nope:

Spoiler

...dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Cross Reference]

rev 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are ....who?

Spoiler

the dead?

nope:

Spoiler

...dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I very good and different observation. No mention of death, just eternal separation.

 

[rstrats]

ok doser,
re: "15 For without are ....who?...the dead?"


The passage doesn't say. But nothing in it precludes them from being dead.

 

[Rosenritter]

rev 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are ....who?

Spoiler

the dead?

nope:

Spoiler

...dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

... which are now dead. See Isaiah 66. Or any other the other passages such as where Jesus says that hell fire is where God "destroys body and soul." So if I was captain of a spaceship, and I told my minions to put you outside the ship, you'd be OK with that, because you'd just be "separated from the captain" and not actually dead, right?

 

[Rosenritter]

Then eternal Hell is their destination. The will live a 'never ending' dying death.

False. Show scripture that says the wicked will live a "never ending" dying death.

Why? He is entitled to his opinion. I have the same scriptures that have left me with mine..

I think it is because Justin actually read the scriptures, and he believed the Hebrew text to be inspired.

The Bible also never says the fire of hell is EVER extinguished. What feeds it that is never extinguished in the sense of there is no more to be consumed by it? What feeds it that is never consumed by it as the "worm, [in that same fire], never dies"?

"Extinguished" is a synonym for "quenched" which means to be actively put out. The Alliance church burnt down and was completely consumed because the fire was not quenched, neither was it extinguished. The fire is not still burning. Figure that out. Until then your denials are corrupt.

The worm does not die because the worm hatches. Have you never seen worms consume a corpse before? Perhaps not if you are a city dweller. If you do not kill the worm they finish devouring anything organic that remains.

All mortals live forever either reconciled to God, by the Blood of Jesus, to live where He is forever, or live unreconciled to Him by rejecting His "so great salvation" that will place them forever in the extreme opposite location of where He lives. A place where He isn't. A place where love CANNOT ever be found. God, in His Holy absoluteness, is Light. In Him can be found no darkness.

False. Eternal life is the gift of God, and it is only given to those that believe on his Son. Your promise of mortals "living forever" without the gift of God is actually blasphemous. Christ only hath immortality, ​and he says that he gives it as a gift, to the righteous, not the wicked.

Question re the issue of hell being eternal:

If, as you say you believe, "the soul that sins shall/will die in hell", how long do you believe it will take the flames to consumed him?

It doesn't matter how long it takes flames to consume the corpses, and the bible rarely speaks in precision terms of time. The worm consumes what the flame does not, so in the end there's nothing left, as in "ashes" beneath the soles of the feet of the righteous (see Malachi). If you define your question for me I will try to supply a more detailed answer.

 

[Rosenritter]

A corpse is not a soul.

Corpses are dead souls. Why else would the bible refer to "living souls" that die?

Rev 16:3 KJV
(3) And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


And "soul" is not limited to men either. Apparently, cattle and oxen are souls too.

Num 31:28 KJV
(28) And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the as ses, and of the sheep:


If you would be willing to set aside your preconceived notions and start from scratch, you might be surprised at what the bible actually says.

 

[Rosenritter]

Carm is a poor reference. Matt Slick refuses to debate the issue even though I repeatedly challenged him on his false doctrine.

Matt Slick also seems to be ignorant of scripture when he creates his own definition of "unquenchable" as "without end." It continues to amaze me at how much people are willing to lie in order to preserve their tradition of eternal torment.

Isa 34:10-11 KJV
(10) It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
(11) But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.


Cormorants and bitterns are not animals that are known for their ability to live within flames.

 

[Rosenritter]

Genesis 2:7 KJV
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1. God did not MAKE souls! The body of Adam BECAME a living INDEPENDENT OF GOD being with an eternal soul after God breathed eternal life into its nostrils. That breath of God, taken into the body of Adam, caused Adam to become an eternal being. A being that can never die. In innocense was "Life eternal" his. When he transgressed, "death eternal" 'happened'. No sin can stand in the presence of God. Is not a transgression in and of itself a "death sentence" to a relationship? Why not ask yourself the question: "Why didn't God just kill Adam and start over", just to see where that will take you in your thinking this through?

What words from 'Samuel' would you declare were NOT of God?

Why are you so quick to forget that God said "I create evil"? Why would God choose to do that except to use it for His purposes.

Where in the whole of scripture do you see that man can have life apart from God? 1 Timothy 6:16, God ... "Only hath immortality." You may need such statements to support "eternal conscious torment" doctrine, but they have no basis in scripture.

Job 34:14-15 KJV
(14) If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
(15) All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

"A being that can never die?" That's the serpent's line, Gen 3:4 KJV (4) "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" ... but we know that the serpent (and you) must be wrong, for we are told that Adam died. Gen 5:5 KJV "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."
Your question about "killing Adam and starting over" seems to be missing something. God did sentence Adam to death. He did die. It's written in the first five chapters of Genesis. Have you read this book? Why didn't he kill him right away? Maybe God wanted Adam to learn something. And for his children to learn something. Maybe God allows man who has fallen into sin to repent. You don't suppose that could have anything to do with it, do you?

As for "what of it?" I would answer that I haven't seen you give one reason why we should believe the witch's apparition to be Samuel in truth. As for which words to trust from a demonic apparition, you shouldn't trust any of them. You shouldn't even participate in attempting to summon them in the first place. Those that do find themselves outside of God's protection and those that seek divination may fall prey to those "predictions" that the spirits choose to deliver.

In your attempts to promote "eternal conscious torment" you have been contradicting scripture at every turn. You have plain out stated things "These are fact" style which the bible specifically speaks against. Is it really that important to you?

 

[Rosenritter]

What makes you believe mentioning that has any relevance to the story/account which merely points up the inexcusable lifestyle of the rich man, except to cause "mischief" in the mind of one literally believing Jesus' story; to make it all to be mentaphorical speak?

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" Romans 1:18 (KJV)

Well, aside that you would destroy the rest of scripture (and Christ's own integrity from his other speech) on your crusade, have you considered that were you to interpret that parable literally, you have a doctrine of salvation through a path other than Christ? The poor man is rewarded because he was poor, because he received "bad things" during his lifetime. The rich man punished because he received "good things." No mention is made of sin, or repentance, or the blood of Christ. It's a reverse health, wealth, and prosperity doctrine.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes but, you but you mention the truth in the matter,, i.e., God never overruled Neb. He simply stepped into the situation to prevent the "decree" from harming "Myshack, yourshake and abungalow".

Wrong decree silly. Look at the one that decreed that all the wise men shall die. Daniel answered the dream and the king reversed his decree.