Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[way 2 go]

Illegitimate Totality Transfer simply means to illegitimately ( wrongly) transfer a word’s total possible meaning, with all its variations and nuances, and forcing them all into a particular context.

You certainly are stubborn. ITT means taking one minor definition of a word and insisting that the word means THAT regardless of the context. A Textbook example of that is what you are doing, by taking a minor definition of apollumi and insisting that is the meaning in John 3:16, even though the context proves that "to perish" means "to not receive eternal life".

Rom_7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

died means spiritual death here and your the one that defines
the past tense word died as future so you can hold on to
your Illegitimate Totality Transfer

Illegitimate Totality Transfer means to take one minor defintion of a word (ie lose), and insist that the word (apollumi) means that, regardless of the context in which the word is used. The context PROVES that the word apoletai in John 3:16 really does mean PERISH, which is to lose out on having eternal life. The contrast in John 3:16 is between PERISHING (NOT having eternal life) and NOT PERISHING (Having eternal life).

you only have one definition your Illegitimate Totality Transfer
Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
Death means the end of life. Being dead means not being alive any longer.
Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos
Christians do not "perish all the time".

Jesus perished and rose from the dead

So "Way2Go" upon reading your posts, it is obvious that you believe that we can pay for our own sins by being tortured alive in hell for all eternity. :idunno:

I believe Jesus when he said

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

punishment G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

 

[way 2 go]

If those who promote Hell are not stupid, then perhaps they are trying to make God appear as evil.

:blabla:

can't support you position,so resort to personal attack

Ad hominem (Latin) means “against the man”. As the name suggests, it is a literary term that involves commenting on or against an opponent to undermine him instead of his arguments.

 

[Arthur Brain]

:duh:

you've been here for what, more than seven years?

and you still don't know what you have to do to escape eternal damnation? :dizzy:


man, that's some extra strength retardedness you got going on there, son :darwinsm:


:mock:tardlyartie, who's missed the message for more than seven years

You actually edited this post? What, were you trying to think of another word for 'retarded' and related so you weren't so mind numbingly boring within your myriad troll posts? And then failed?

You are a one man borefest dude, a pretend Christian who obviously has so many neuroses and bitterness going on that he has nothing better to do than project them on a public forum when the library happens to be open.

Get a life man, for your sake as much as everyone else's. Get a more creative and intelligent vocabulary going on while you're at it.

:up:

 

[ok doser]

You actually edited this post? What, were you trying to think of another word for 'retarded' and related so you weren't so mind numbingly boring within your myriad troll posts? And then failed?

You are a one man borefest dude, a pretend Christian who obviously has so many neuroses and bitterness going on that he has nothing better to do than project them on a public forum when the library happens to be open.

Get a life man, for your sake as much as everyone else's. Get a more creative and intelligent vocabulary going on while you're at it.

:up:

have fun burning in hell, loser :idunno:

 

[Timotheos]

I believe Jesus when he said

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

punishment G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

Don't you believe that extermination is a punishment? Therefore Matthew 25:46 supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is death just as much as it supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is to be tortured alive forever in hell. Matthew 25:46 also says that the righteous go into eternal life, not BOTH groups. Only the righteous will have eternal life. In order for the wicked to be tormented alive for all eternity in hell, they would have to also have eternal life in hell. Matthew 25:46 says that only the righteous have eternal life, so Matthew 25:46 argues AGAINST the doctrine of eternal conscious torture in hell.

Why don't you give up and accept the truth that the Bible says?

 

[patrick jane]

Don't you believe that extermination is a punishment? Therefore Matthew 25:46 supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is death just as much as it supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is to be tortured alive forever in hell. Matthew 25:46 also says that the righteous go into eternal life, not BOTH groups. Only the righteous will have eternal life. In order for the wicked to be tormented alive for all eternity in hell, they would have to also have eternal life in hell. Matthew 25:46 says that only the righteous have eternal life, so Matthew 25:46 argues AGAINST the doctrine of eternal conscious torture in hell.

Why don't you give up and accept the truth that the Bible says?

What if hell is just uncomfortable for eternity

 

[Timotheos]

What if hell is just uncomfortable for eternity

If the Bible actually said that, I would believe it. However the Bible says that only those who are in Christ will receive eternal life. In order to have eternal life sitting in an uncomfortable chair in a corner of hell, a person would have to have eternal life. The Bible simply does not say that those who reject Christ will inherit eternal life. The Bible says that the wicked will perish. I don't understand why people won't accept what the Bible says, when they claim that they are Christians.

 

[rstrats]

Timotheos,
re: " I don't understand why people won't accept what the Bible says, when they claim that they are Christians."

It must be because they want folks to be tormented for eternity and so they try to interpret scripture in that way. They gloss over the fact that no where does scripture say that eternal life will also be given to the unsaved.

 

[Timotheos]

Timotheos,
re: " I don't understand why people won't accept what the Bible says, when they claim that they are Christians."

I must be because they want folks to be tormented for eternity and so they try to interpret scripture in that way. They gloss over the fact that no where does scripture say that eternal life will also be given to the unsaved.

That must be why, but I've seen people flat out deny that the reason they believe that the lost will be given eternal life in hell is because they want them to be tormented. They actually claim that they believe what the Bible says and they claim that those who believe that the wages of sin is death do not believe what the Bible says. When the scripture passages are pointed out to them, they ignore them as long as they can, and then they deny that the Bible actually means what it says. One guy actually claimed that John 3:16 said that "Jesus had to die because we could not pay the penalty of eternal punishment." When I pointed out that John 3:16 said whosoever believes in him should not PERISH but have eternal life, he claimed that the Greek word which every translator translates as perish doesn't really mean perish. Sheer Sadistic Stubborness is one explanation that explains the behavior of the torture defenders, but I just don't think that they see themselves that way. Years and years of consistent brainwashing seems more likely. They can look at a passage that specifically states that the wicked will perish, and only see eternal conscious torment in that passage. That is the hallmark of brainwashing. I still don't understand why people who claim to only believe what the Bible say consistently deny what the Bible says when it disagrees with their cherished doctrine. I don't want to believe that they have been brainwashed, but I can't see any other logical explanation. Does one of the ECTists want to offer an explanation for the reason that they don't believe what the Bible says?

 

[Timotheos]

I believe Jesus when he said

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

punishment G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

I believe what Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 too. Matthew 25:46 does not prove that the eternal punishment for sin is not death, just as the Bible says.

Here is the defintion of "Capital Punishment":
1.the legally authorized killing of someone as punishment for a crime.

Notice that "killing someone" (death) actually IS "punishment" for a crime. Eternal punishment is punishment that lasts forever. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. This death lasts forever for those who do not receive eternal life. Since it lasts forever it is eternal. Since death is a punishment AND it is eternal, it is an eternal punishment. Matthew 25:46 does not prove that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torture in hell.

 

[ok doser]

What if hell is just uncomfortable for eternity

what, like having wet socks or spending a weekend with your mother-in-law?

 

[way 2 go]

Don't you believe that extermination is a punishment?

:nono:

Mat_26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

if you don't exist you can't be punished.

Therefore Matthew 25:46 supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is death just as much as it supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is to be tortured alive forever in hell.

it says
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


not
Mat 25:46 And these will come to an end but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 25:46 also says that the righteous go into eternal life, not BOTH groups. Only the righteous will have eternal life. In order for the wicked to be tormented alive for all eternity in hell, they would have to also have eternal life in hell. Matthew 25:46 says that only the righteous have eternal life, so Matthew 25:46 argues AGAINST the doctrine of eternal conscious torture in hell.

you hold tightly to your Illegitimate Totality Transfer of death

you only have one definition your Illegitimate Totality Transfer
Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
Death means the end of life. Being dead means not being alive any longer.
Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos
Christians do not "perish all the time".

Why don't you give up and accept the truth that the Bible says?

that is the discussion what is the truth about eternal conscious torment.

since you have an Illegitimate Totality Transfer of death you get things wrong.

Rom_7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

[Timotheos]

I asked: "Don't you believe that extermination is a punishment?"
You replied:

:nono:

Mat_26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

if you don't exist you can't be punished.

The punishment is death. I know that you believe that death is a form of punishment, since there is a DEATH PENALTY. Or why do you suppose they use lethal injection on murderers? The eternal punishment of eternal death is THAT you no longer exist for all of eternity. You are imposing additional requirements on the meaning of "punishment" that are not in the definition. You do this simply to justify the doctrine that you want to have.

It is not "Illegitimate Totality Transfer" to believe that "DEATH" does not mean "TO NEVER DIE". It is simple acceptance of the meaning of the word death. Your doctrine requires you to misdefine words. Why don't you just accept that the Bible really does mean what it says?

 

[rstrats]

way 2 go,
re: "does the rich man ask a question that would lead us to believe he is being consumed by fire ?"


The rich man doesn't ask any questions.

 

[way 2 go]

way 2 go,
re: "does the rich man ask a question that would lead us to believe he is being consumed by fire ?"


The rich man doesn't ask any questions.

he made requests

does the rich man make a requests that would lead us to believe he is being consumed by fire or that it is unjust ?

 

[way 2 go]

I asked: "Don't you believe that extermination is a punishment?"
You replied:

:nono:

The punishment is death. I know that you believe that death is a form of punishment, since there is a DEATH PENALTY. Or why do you suppose they use lethal injection on murderers?

so when someone is executed do they cease to exist everywhere ?
:nono:
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

The eternal punishment of eternal death is THAT you no longer exist for all of eternity.

if you don't exist you can't be punished.

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You are imposing additional requirements on the meaning of "punishment" that are not in the definition. You do this simply to justify the doctrine that you want to have.

:nono:
says eternal punishment


it says
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

not
Mat 25:46 And these will come to an end but the righteous into eternal life."

It is not "Illegitimate Totality Transfer" to believe that "DEATH" does not mean "TO NEVER DIE". It is simple acceptance of the meaning of the word death.

you only have one definition of death
which is why it is Illegitimate Totality Transfer


Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
Death means the end of life. Being dead means not being alive any longer.
Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos
Christians do not "perish all the time".

death as a place, death as a condition but you can't read it that way :
Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you.
Isa 14:10 They will make fun of you, saying, "Now you are as dead as we are. Now you are just like us."

Your doctrine requires you to misdefine words. Why don't you just accept that the Bible really does mean what it says?

that would be you


since you have an Illegitimate Totality Transfer of death you get things wrong.

Rom_7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

[freelight]

Rejecting ECT is a sign of sanity, for starters.......

Rejecting ECT is a sign of sanity, for starters.......

That must be why, but I've seen people flat out deny that the reason they believe that the lost will be given eternal life in hell is because they want them to be tormented. They actually claim that they believe what the Bible says and they claim that those who believe that the wages of sin is death do not believe what the Bible says. When the scripture passages are pointed out to them, they ignore them as long as they can, and then they deny that the Bible actually means what it says. One guy actually claimed that John 3:16 said that "Jesus had to die because we could not pay the penalty of eternal punishment." When I pointed out that John 3:16 said whosoever believes in him should not PERISH but have eternal life, he claimed that the Greek word which every translator translates as perish doesn't really mean perish. Sheer Sadistic Stubborness is one explanation that explains the behavior of the torture defenders, but I just don't think that they see themselves that way. Years and years of consistent brainwashing seems more likely. They can look at a passage that specifically states that the wicked will perish, and only see eternal conscious torment in that passage. That is the hallmark of brainwashing. I still don't understand why people who claim to only believe what the Bible say consistently deny what the Bible says when it disagrees with their cherished doctrine. I don't want to believe that they have been brainwashed, but I can't see any other logical explanation. Does one of the ECTists want to offer an explanation for the reason that they don't believe what the Bible says?

It can be only just that, a particular religious belief, concept or persuasion towards a literal reading of English words, which distort the original language-meaning-intentions in the original text, and give the impression of 'eternal punishment' as if souls were detained in a conscious state of pain, agony, torment, suffering....TO NO END. Even apart from a meticulous study of original word meanings and being true to the context, on moral evaluation and principle alone, the concept of God imposing ECT upon sentient beings FOREVER violates the very nature and character of God (Love/Wisdom; Justice/Mercy), as well as being self-defeating on all levels, since divine love's will is forever sabotaged by such a sentence. (it is illogical, irrational and insane). Furthermore a place existing whereby saved souls and even God himself is AWARE of existing means the full joy or serenity of life could not be fully enjoyed, if anywhere in existence there is unmitigated suffering and torment to sentient beings! Love and divine Wisdom would ever extend their divine perogatives to assist, rehabilitate, restore such souls if indeed they still have the ability/capacity to RESPOND to God and repent. This would be Love's true will, unless souls could make a final choice of a full embrace of iniquity whereby that soul reaps the full result which is DEATH, whereby it is disintegrated, erased, expunged from conscious existence. Souls that actually PERISH, do so finally/eternally. There is no resurrection or continuity of existence for that particular personality, it actually DIES. Such is the 'second death'. This is the 'conditional immortality' view of course which many verses support.

Full biblical support and proofs for 'Conditional Immortality' HERE.

Universal salvation/reconciliation also has some passage support, which also rejects ECT. 'Condtiional immorality' and 'universal salvation' are much more RATIONAL than ECT, whereby nothing is gained whatsoever except eternal pain, suffering, hopelessness and a perteptual state of insanity. Anyone believing that this is imposed by or willed by 'God', has a strange and demented concept of 'God'.

ECT fails to glorify God, since it defeats his will.

 

[Timotheos]

so when someone is executed do they cease to exist everywhere ?
:nono:
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

This is in a parable, not a description of the condition of hell after the final judgment. Whenever the Bible decribes the fate of the wicked it uses the language of complete destruction. When God destroys the wicked, the Bible says "The wicked will be no more". (Psalm 37:10) When someone is NO MORE, they do not continue to exist as if they were not NO MORE.

if you don't exist you can't be punished.

You keep repeating the same rejected arguments. An existing person can be punished by having their existence removed forever. That is an eternal punishment. The effect of the punishment lasts forever. If FOREVER isn't ETERNAL, then Nothing is!

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbolism. It is unwise to take a passage from it and use it to overturn all of the rest of scripture. Even of you were to take this symbolic passage completely literally (and ignore the rest of scripture) it doesn't say that PEOPLE will go to hell where they will be tormented forever. Read it again. It says the devil, the beast (which has seven heads and tens horns!!!), and the false prophet. NOT every human who has ever lived.

you only have one definition of death
which is why it is Illegitimate Totality Transfer

You are forgetting to look at the context to determine the meaning of apoletai (perish). Since perish (apoletai) is contrasted with HAVING ETERNAL LIFE, you should be able to see that apoletai really does mean "to perish", to NOT have eternal life. Also, you are arguing that apoletai doesn't really mean "to perish", but EVERY Greek Language expert who has ever translated the Bible has translated "apoletai" as "perish" in John 3:16. Are you seriously suggesting that EVERY Bible translation has gotten the translation of John 3:16 wrong, and only YOU know how John 3:16 should be translated? Are you also suggesting that you first read John 3:16 and believed it when it said that those who reject the Son will perish, but then after an extensive study of the Greek Language in John 3:16, you rejected the translation and came to the conclusion that the unrepentant will live forever in torment? I don't believe that. I think it is much more likely that you are grasping at anything you can just to hold onto the doctrine that you want to believe. Reading your doctrine INTO scripture is called "eisegesis" and it is not the proper way to understand scripture. A doctrine should be derive out of a careful study of scripture, not the other way around.

death as a place, death as a condition but you can't read it that way :
Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming. Sheol is waking the spirits of all the leaders of the earth for you. Sheol is making the kings stand up from their thrones to meet you.
Isa 14:10 They will make fun of you, saying, "Now you are as dead as we are. Now you are just like us."

You REALLY need to look at the context of the prooftexts you throw up.
The verse immediately before your excised passage says "The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying...", so your passage attempting to "prove" that death is a place where dead people are alive also "proves" that trees can talk. Bring me a talking tree, and then you will have proven that death is a place and not the condition of no longer being alive. And it isn't JUST talking trees that proves you wrong. Isaiah 14:4 says "you will take up this TAUNT against the King of Babylon". So is Isaiah 14:9-10 a travel description of Hell? No, it is part of a taunt against the King of Babylon. Context is key, and you are ignoring the context in your rush to find ANY evidence for your doctrine. Eisegesis, again.

Returning to Context, the next verse following your excised prooftext says "maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers". Is it more likely that this describes a dead corpse lying in a grave, or a living soul being tortured alive? Your prooftexts are sloppy. You are just looking for any excuse to believe the doctrine that you want to believe. It's sad.

 

[rstrats]

way 2 go,
re: "does the rich man make a requests that would lead us to believe he is being consumed by fire..."

Yes. In the parable He says He is being tormented by fire. Fire consumes things.



re: "...or that it is unjust ?"

Not from what the rich man requests. But Abraham seems to suggest that the rich man is in the flames simply because he received good things in life. That seems unjust to me.

 

[way 2 go]

way 2 go,
re: "does the rich man make a requests that would lead us to believe he is being consumed by fire..."

Yes. In the parable He says He is being tormented by fire. Fire consumes things.

he is dead
his body is in the ground
and he still exists
it is his spirit in the fire
no flesh , no nerve endings
torment sure, consuming fire no.

re: "...or that it is unjust ?"

Not from what the rich man requests. But Abraham seems to suggest that the rich man is in the flames simply because he received good things in life. That seems unjust to me.

God will prevail when you judge him an unjust judge.

Rom 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged."