dodge
New member
You really have no clue do you ! where their worm dieth NOT means they cannot die while they live in eternal torment.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
You really have no clue do you ! where their worm dieth NOT means they cannot die while they live in eternal torment.
No.
It means the fire is not quenched, and Jesus said men would perish in it, not live forever in it.
LA
dodge
New member
Scripture says YOU are wrong !
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
look---
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
LA
Scripture?
CherubRam
New member
[FONT="]Genesis 2:17[/FONT]
[FONT="]but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Genesis 3:3[/FONT]
[FONT="]but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Genesis 3:4[/FONT]
[FONT="]“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Revelation 12:9[/FONT]
[FONT="]The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,[/FONT][FONT="] who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Revelation 20:2[/FONT]
[FONT="]He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
dodge,
re: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever..."
The verse only says that smoke ascends forever—it does not say that the anyone's torment continues forever. David wrote in Psalms 37:20 that “the wicked shall perish [not be tortured forever in hell]…Into smoke they shall vanish away.” Show us a scripture that specifically says that the fate of the unsaved (other than the devil as the KJV has it) is going to be eternally tortured.
re: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever..."
The verse only says that smoke ascends forever—it does not say that the anyone's torment continues forever. David wrote in Psalms 37:20 that “the wicked shall perish [not be tortured forever in hell]…Into smoke they shall vanish away.” Show us a scripture that specifically says that the fate of the unsaved (other than the devil as the KJV has it) is going to be eternally tortured.
Derf
Well-known member
I know we've been round and round with these verses, but I wanted to re-introduce these with some accompanying thoughts.
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
[Rev 20:6 KJV] Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[Rev 20:10 KJV] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. That little word "are" is marked with [] to show its addition to make more sense ("were" is in at least one other version). Almost all (King James excepted) follow with "They shall be tormented...", which tells us, if true and if translated correctly, that besides the devil, there are 2 people at least that will be tormented forever and ever.
[Rev 21:8 KJV] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
In light of Rev 20:10, Rev 21:8 seems to indicate that others will share the same fate as the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. But it calls it "the second death".
So, here's where I get to run off at the theological mouth for a little bit. I'm hypothesizing, so don't take this as gospel.
Adam was threatened with death, not eternal torment, for eating of the wrong tree. If God was thinking eternal torment, then Adam has a right to complain of false advertising, as Scottune pointed out.
What if God said exactly what He meant--death, and nothing following (assumed for this discussion)--was the penalty for Adam? And what if Revelation 20:10 and 21:8 mean exactly what they say--that there will be something following death (backed up by Hebrews 9:27 that says judgment follows death)? Is there inconsistency? or was there a change?
Obviously, if we believe God's word is infallible, and we believe God is who He says He is, the only choice is that there was a change (again, this is based on the assumptions, which aren't proven). What would change something so important as death? The only answer I can think of is Jesus Christ, and His death and resurrection. And what did Jesus do? He defeated death!
2 Timothy 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.
1 Corinthians 15:24-26 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
If then death is defeated for both believers and non-believers, what end awaits the non-believers? Second Death? How can death be defeated, the dead be raised, then death be the final outcome for some? Only Revelation uses the words "second death", and it is defined there:
[Rev 2:11 ESV] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'
[Rev 20:6 ESV] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
[Rev 20:14 ESV] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
[Rev 21:8 ESV] But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
[Rev 20:6 ESV] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
[Rev 20:14 ESV] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
[Rev 21:8 ESV] But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
So, what I propose is that the blood of Jesus Christ was sufficient for all mankind, and the power of it is universal--that the resurrection of both believers and non-believers depends on the defeat of death, by the blood of Jesus Christ. I think that answers the question Scottune had of why would everlasting punishment not be mentioned to Adam.
But then what? Judgment, according to Hebrews 9:27, but a judgment that has already occurred according to Revelation (those that are not resurrected in the first resurrection are in trouble already). If the judgment as to whether they die again is already made before they are resurrected, and the death is the same as before, why are they resurrected at all? If for punishment, then we get back to the argument that the only thing threatened to Adam was death, not punishment after death, whether short term or eternal. Death WAS the judgment for Adam.
And the difference, according to the New Testament, appears to be "belief" in Jesus Christ. Why would such a thing as belief make a difference between the 1st and 2nd resurrection, or between achieving life eternal vs a second death, if Christ's blood defeated death? I think it goes back to the Garden and what the significance was of Adam's disobedience--he refused to acknowledge God as the one that got to make the rules. Jesus' sacrifice erased that curse of death, but we still need to acknowledge God's leadership/ownership of us. And if we don't--if we aren't willing to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, the only begotten son of God--then the only option God has once death is no longer an option (it was defeated) is to banish people away from His kingdom--to throw them into the outer darkness, the lake of fire, the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, the place that has none of the good things of life and rest.
No. It only shows punishment until the end of the age, and then cast into the lake of fire as per---
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
LA
Derf
Well-known member
Seems like Isa 24:21-22 is better associated with: [Rev 20:2-3 KJV] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
I don't see any allowance for a "visitation" after Satan is cast into the lake of fire, nor for the beast and false prophet, do you? But the default pop-up read: "And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished." If the lake of fire is not punishment, but is a method for annihilation (as proposed by others), then it seems strange that 1. they aren't burnt up in the fire (as proposed by others), and 2. they need to be punished afterward (as proposed by none that I have ever seen).
genuineoriginal
New member
Here is the order the events happen in:
Revelation 20:2-3 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. |
Revelation 20:10 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. |
Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years, is released, then is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.
The punishment of Satan is not being put into the abyss, that is done to remove his influence over this world during the millennial kingdom.
The punishment of Satan is being thrown into the lake of fire.
There is no indication from Revelation 20:10 that the beast and false prophet survive being cast into the lake of fire, only a reference to Satan being tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Since the beast and the false prophet are human, it can safely be assumed that they meet the same fate as other humans cast into the lake of fire, the second death, which is annihilation.
Satan, unlike the beast and false prophet, could already be immortal, in which case being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone would not kill him.
Luke 16 gives a time when the rich man is punished in the fire, before the final judgment of all men at the last judgment.
LA
Derf
Well-known member
Ok, now what?
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
They shall be visited for the last Judgment at the end of the thousand years.
LA
Derf
Well-known member
I agree with the timeline--that was the point I was making, too.
I wouldn't say there is NO indication of the beast and false prophet surviving, as multiple (most in fact) translations I looked through seem to read that way. But I agree that it's not conclusive.
I'm not convinced that the second death is annihilation, though I appreciate your defining it for me. How safe your assumption is--pun intended--could be and has been argued vigorously.
My proposition (read back a couple posts) is that most humans, by the time they are thrown into the lake of fire, are also immortal, like Satan. I'm not dead set on the idea (pun not intended that time), so I'm offering it up for discussion. I'll repeat the idea: that if Jesus defeated death and resurrected those that died, then how could they die again? Was Jesus powerless to really defeat death? And thus the need for something called "second death", or the lake of fire, wherein go Satan and his angels.
I'm attempting to use Timotheos's definition of "death" here (read a few of his posts, if you haven't already), which is annihilation (T. didn't differentiate between a first death state and a second death state, but said death means no more life, no more consciousness, no more anything having to do with life). So if annihilation happens before judgment (1st death), then resurrection indicates a defeat of death (and annihilation), so a second death can't have the same properties, else it wasn't defeated.
Derf
Well-known member
I agree--that was my point. The last judgment after 1000 years was the lake of fire. Are we in violent agreement here? I must be missing your point in bringing up Is 24:21-22.
It is because most regard the New Jerusalem coming down after the last judgment, that they do not see the judgment of the false prophets being thrown into the lake of fire for punishment described in Rev.ch 21 at the beginning of the millennium.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
During the 1000 years, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is ongoing, followed by annihilation.
It is not possible for false prophets or beast worshippers to arise after Christ returns.
and the rest of mankind remains in the grave until the last judgment where many are spared.
This complies with Daniel ch 12.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(the living believers, the great multitude)
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
( at the beginning of the 1000 years)
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
(the last judgment of all men is not mentioned here)
LA
Derf
Well-known member
Thanks for the explanation LA.
I've seen a couple of responses to that phrase to allow for annihilation. One is that the contempt is held by those that remain, but the target of the contempt is annihilated. That could be, I suppose, but it seems like those that remain would have better things to do than be thinking of the annihilated ones with contempt forever, when they aren't there to "benefit" from the contempt.
I guess that's ok. I'm not sure if the parable is ongoing, at least the Lazarus part, in Abraham's bosom, but no great issue with it. The annihilation is the question of the thread, so I'm not ready to accede to that yet.
I agree it's not possible for the beast and false prophet to leave the lake of fire, and they are definitely thrown in before the 1000 years, but I don't see anything that says other beast worshippers are thrown in at that time.
I'm not in disagreement with you on most of that. Your interpretation is reasonable, though not necessarily the only possible one. None of it suggests annihilation, but rather "everlasting contempt" is mentioned.
I've seen a couple of responses to that phrase to allow for annihilation. One is that the contempt is held by those that remain, but the target of the contempt is annihilated. That could be, I suppose, but it seems like those that remain would have better things to do than be thinking of the annihilated ones with contempt forever, when they aren't there to "benefit" from the contempt.