Aimiel
Well-known member
If you don't accept the New Testament as Scriptures, you cannot see The Kingdom. How can you comment on what you cannot see?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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If you don't accept the New Testament as Scriptures, you cannot see The Kingdom. How can you comment on what you cannot see?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
I have no rest day and night due to my insomnia, but I am not in torment or being tortured.
I'm not willing to say more than the Bible says.
It says that they have no rest day and night. It doesn't say how long this continues. It says the smoke rises forever, it doesn't say the torment lasts forever. The Bible as a whole states clearly that the wicked are destroyed. It doesn't make any sense to take one passage out of the Book of Revelation that doesn't even say that the torture lasts forever and use it to overturn ALL of the REST of the Bible.
If you want to overturn every other passage in the Bible, it had better be VERY clear in the passage you are relying on. Eternal conscious torment is not clearly spelled out in the phrase "they will have no rest day or night." I have no rest day or night, I am not in a state of eternal torture.
way 2 go
Well-known member
you could not experience insomnia if you did not exist
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
way 2 go
Well-known member
yes it says for ever and ever
it does not say , And the smoke of where they were tormented
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
The trouble with that is that is not what the passage actually says.
Duh yourself.
If the wicked are set on fire to torture them forever, and the smoke from that scorching flesh is what rises forever, then this passage contradicts many other passages in the Bible which clearly state that the wicked will be destroyed by the fire. Psalm 37:20, Psalm 37:10, Psalm 37:38, Malachi 4:1, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 10:28, Philippians 3:19, Hebrews 10:27, Hebrews 10:39, 2 Peter 3:7, and Jude 1:7 come right to mind.
Since we know that the Bible does not contradict itself, and we know that Revelation 14:11 doesn't actually say that the torment continues forever, but the SMOKE of the 'Basanismou' rises forever, we know for sure that Revelation 14:11 is not teaching that bad people go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever. The Verse does not say that.
But I am equally convinced that nothing whatsoever will change your mind. Even if Jesus Christ Himself said "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish", you will not believe that the unrepentant will perish. You believe in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell because you WANT to believe in ECT in Hell, Not because the Bible teaches ECT.
If you set me on fire, the smoke would keep rising whether or not I am conscious. You are reading your beloved doctrine into this passage. It does not say that the wicked will experience eternal conscious torment.
I know that you really want eternal conscious torment to be true, but it simply is not supportable in Scripture.
God bless you.
6days
New member
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever...."
So, you think this means there torment is for a limited time? But the smoke of their torment lasts for eternity?
Jesus taught about Hell as an eternal fire. "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8)
So, again you think the eternal fire causes only temporary torment?
Your beliefs, if I understand them correctly simply are inconsistent with many scriptures, such as "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," (Matt. 25:46).
No. I believe the torment completely destroys them, just as the Bible says in many places. Didn't you know that the Bible says "their end is destruction" and "the wicked will be no more"?
No. I believe the eternal fire completely destroys the wicked, just as fire does to whatever it burns up. Didn't you know that the chaff will be burnt up by the fire? Or do you think that the eternal fire is incapable of burning anything up?
Actually, my beliefs (IF you understand them correctly) are absolutely consistent with scripture, even the scripture you posted. Didn't you know that only the righteous go into eternal life? If YOU are correct, then the wicked will also receive eternal life, in hell being tortured alive forever. No, it is perfectly consistent with eternal punishment to believe that the punishment is eternal destruction. OR do you believe that eternal destruction is somehow temporary???
In truth, the belief that the wicked will live forever in hell being tortured alive forever is simply inconsistent with many scriptures, such as John 3:16, "Whoever believes in Him shall not PERISH but have eternal life", Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATHbut the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, (or do you believe that the wicked will also inherit eternal life???), and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction..." along with hundreds of other Scripture passages that specifically state that the wicked will perish, they will be destroyed, and they will be no more.
6days
New member
I agree with all your verses. I also can cite more verses that refer to eternal punishment.
We disagree about Hell though. The wicked do have both physical and spiritual death. Spiritual death is eternal separation from God and all that is good. Physical death is something we all experience because of our sinful nature.
You are not hearing what I am saying. I don't know how to get through to you. I AGREE that there is eternal punishment. Do you understand this??? I simply disagree (and thus agree with the Bible) that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment. I believe that the eternal punishment is destruction, and those who are destroyed remained destroyed forever, making their destruction an eternal punishment.
You say that you agree with the verses I gave you, then why do you not agree that the wicked are destroyed instead of tortured alive in hell?
Lon
Well-known member
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: He posted:
:nono: this is where he disagrees with you. The verse in question is 'eternal chastisement' (eternal suffering). Do some concordance work. It looks like you are the one disagreeing with scripture. 6days quoted it 'punishment.'
Lon
Well-known member
You are welcome, but look at a concordance on this word as well. It 'can' mean destruction, but look at the whole meaning of the word.