Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

eternal punishment in eternal fire


Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42
Mat 25:43
Mat 25:44
Mat 25:45
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

not destroyed there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

nowhere does it say the spirit is destroyed

fallen angels are spirits and they are not destroyed

One time, when I was 13, I poured gasoline onto a pile of leaves and I lit it up. Don't ever do this. The pile of leaves exploded. The leaves were completely destroyed. This is what happens to anything that is put into the eternal fire. It is destroyed. The eternal punishment is that the wicked are destroyed and remain destroyed forever.

You claim that nowhere does the Bible say that the spirit is destroyed. I see that you are very careful in that statement, because in Matthew 10:28 Jesus specifically states that the bodies and the souls of those sent to hell will be destroyed.

I am not a spiritist. I believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting, just as the Nicene Creed states. The Bible does not say that we will live forever as ghosts. The Bible says that we will be resurrected and we will have eternal life. The Bible never says that the wicked will receive eternal life. The Bible says that they will perish.

Is there any use in discussing this with people who do not want to believe that the wicked are not tortured alive forever in hell?

 

[way 2 go]

One time, when I was 13, I poured gasoline onto a pile of leaves and I lit it up. Don't ever do this. The pile of leaves exploded. The leaves were completely destroyed. This is what happens to anything that is put into the eternal fire. It is destroyed. The eternal punishment is that the wicked are destroyed and remain destroyed forever.

obviously destroyed does not mean what you think it means

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

You claim that nowhere does the Bible say that the spirit is destroyed. I see that you are very careful in that statement, because in Matthew 10:28 Jesus specifically states that the bodies and the souls of those sent to hell will be destroyed.

in context of mat 10:28 and other verses on hell
destroy = completely ruin which only God is capable of doing
hence his threat

apollumi

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

apo (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
olethros

From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

I am not a spiritist. I believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting, just as the Nicene Creed states. The Bible does not say that we will live forever as ghosts. The Bible says that we will be resurrected and we will have eternal life. The Bible never says that the wicked will receive eternal life. The Bible says that they will perish.

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

shame and everlasting contempt

where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

and these will go away into eternal punishment

Is there any use in discussing this with people who do not want to believe that the wicked are not tortured alive forever in hell?

sure if you were right but so far ...

I said spiritually dead burying physically dead
Mat_8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.
you disagreed but could not explain

I said the wicked will feel shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You said Christians will feel shame and everlasting contempt.

I said you have to exist to be punished
to feel shame you have to exist
to have contempt you have to exist
to weep you have to exist
to gnash your teeth you have to exist
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

you said not existing is punishment

 

[Lon]

You people just can't fathom how God in his love, mercy, and judgement will end a person's existence unless he receives by faith the gift of God through Jesus Christ which is eternal life.

Jesus, Himself gave Luke 16 without missing a beat or batting an eye. That you miss a beat and bat and eye? No question, but you read a LOT of verses with your 'feelings' and sentiments as the imperative and thus deny Christ's words and Christ's deity etc. Nobody thinks a lot of the prowess of Unitarians on this board.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

Dear Timotheos,

What do you think? That God is going to give everyone the same eternal life to everyone, even if they've acted horrendously their whole life??! Very few will go to the lake of fire {our Sun} forever, til our Sun dies. Perhaps God will put them in another Sun after ours' dies. It is written that death and Hell gave up the dead in them, and they were judged every one according to their works {See Rev. 20:13 KJV}. Not many will go to the lake of fire. But the beast/Antichrist, and the false prophet, and Satan shall be cast into the lake of fire. So will those who are not found written in the book of life. Now perhaps almost everyone is written in the book of life. Who knows?? Don't get so frazzled. God is loving, but the jerks during their lifetimes will not get the same reward as the good, holy people. I guess writing more will not convince everyone, so I'll close for now. God Be With You!! You'll Do Fine!!

Michael

:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :guitar: :singer:
​

 

[MichaelCadry]

Where does it say that the spirit still exists after the body is dead?

Why would "everlasting contempt" NOT be total destruction?

The "Samuel" that "came up" was not Samuel but a demon impersonating him, which they do often, even today.

It could not have been Samuel because:


"THE DEAD ARE CONSCIOUS OF NOTHING". Eccles.9:5

Dear KingdomRose,

The spirit in a man's/woman's soul does not die. It goes to God/Heaven or it goes to Satan/Hell. Now the soul of the good rests/death in limbo until the next resurrection, which will be when Jesus Returns Again. That is the next resurrection. Now the soul of the evil man/woman goes to Hell, instead. You will notice that the Lord said to Daniel {see Dan. 12:13 KJV}, "But go thou thy way till the End be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." So Daniel will be judged after Armageddon and Jesus' Second Coming, the first resurrection. Okay, I'll go for now.

God Advise You If You Listen Closely To Your Heart,

Michael

 

[Ben Masada]

What is the Lake of Fire for?

Literally, it was to burn the carcasses of the animals sacrificed in the Temple. Since the destruction of the Temple in the year 70 ACE, the sacrifices became obsolete and no longer necessary. The place to burn the carcasses was called Gehenna.

 

[Timotheos]

Dear Timotheos,

What do you think? That God is going to give everyone the same eternal life to everyone, even if they've acted horrendously their whole life??!

No. That is NOT what I believe and I can't believe you got that from anything I ever posted.

I believe that the wicked will perish and will be no more. Why do you think that perishing and being no more is "eternal life"??!!

Those who believe that the wicked will be tortured alive forever in hell are the ones who believe that the wicked will receive eternal life (in hell) even if they've acted horrendously their whole life. I believe the Bible which specifically states that their end is destruction.

 

[Timotheos]

obviously destroyed does not mean what you think it means

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'




in context of mat 10:28 and other verses on hell
destroy = completely ruin which only God is capable of doing
hence his threat

apollumi

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

apo (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
olethros

From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.





In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

shame and everlasting contempt

where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

and these will go away into eternal punishment



sure if you were right but so far ...

I said spiritually dead burying physically dead
Mat_8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.
you disagreed but could not explain

I said the wicked will feel shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You said Christians will feel shame and everlasting contempt.

I said you have to exist to be punished
to feel shame you have to exist
to have contempt you have to exist
to weep you have to exist
to gnash your teeth you have to exist
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

you said not existing is punishment

Seriously, the definition that you posted yourself says that apollumi means destruction. But I can see that you are fullly committed to your view regardless of what the Bible says or what the actual definition of apollumi is.

I know that you will never ever change your mind and come to believe that the wages of sin really is death, just as the Bible says, instead of eternal torture as the false doctrine claims.

 

[Aimiel]

It is SOUND doctrine, since it's outlined, described and promoted by Scriptures.

 

[Timotheos]

It is SOUND doctrine, since it's outlined, described and promoted by Scriptures.

What does John 3:16 say in the Scriptures? Do those who do not have eternal life perish or do they also receive eternal life being tormented alive?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosover believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I'm sorry, but Scripture does not describe nor promote the doctrine of bad people going to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead. There isn't even ONE verse in all of the Scriptures that says that.

Sound Doctrine states that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The wicked will perish and will be no more.
Romans 6:23
Psalm 37:10
Psalm 37:20
(Plus all of Scripture)

All of Scripture attests that there is only one way to have eternal life and that is by faith in God, explained in the New Testament by faith in Jesus Christ, whose death on the cross is the substitute for the death that we owe because of sin.

One thing that those who hold to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment have NEVER been able to explain is Why, if the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment, and Jesus paid for our sins in our place, why did Jesus not pay the penalty of eternal conscious torment? Why is Jesus still not in torment, if the penalty really is eternal conscious torment? Either the penalty is death and not eternal conscious torment OR the penalty of eternal conscious torment remains UNPAID.

 

[ok doser]

There isn't even ONE verse in all of the Scriptures that says that.

well, there's Rev 14:9-11

Spoiler

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and
they have no rest day nor night
who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

but you don't like Rev 14:9-11, do you?

 

[Aimiel]

I'm sorry, but Scripture does not describe nor promote the doctrine of bad people going to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead. There isn't even ONE verse in all of the Scriptures that says that.

Actually, there are several.

Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. *11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The 'Beast,' is the anti-Christ, who is human, as is his false prophet.

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be*in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

They aren't ever described as being relieved from torment by no longer existing. Nope. The 'Second Death' is eternal conscious torment, as any simple reading of Scripture reveals.

 

[way 2 go]

Seriously, the definition that you posted yourself says that apollumi means destruction. But I can see that you are fullly committed to your view regardless of what the Bible says or what the actual definition of apollumi is.

your fully committed too

I said the wicked will feel shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You said Christians will feel shame and everlasting contempt.
now that is commitment

I said you have to exist to be punished
to feel shame you have to exist
to have contempt you have to exist
to weep you have to exist
to gnash your teeth you have to exist

have no rest day nor night you have to exist

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

you said not existing is punishment now that is commitment
to the impossible since a person has to exist for things to
happen to a person.

I know that you will never ever change your mind and come to believe that the wages of sin really is death, just as the Bible says, instead of eternal torture as the false doctrine claims.

I do believe the wages of sin is death

I said spiritually dead burying physically dead
Mat_8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.
you disagreed but could not explain

Adam & Eve died the day they ate from the tree

 

[MichaelCadry]

No. That is NOT what I believe and I can't believe you got that from anything I ever posted.

I believe that the wicked will perish and will be no more. Why do you think that perishing and being no more is "eternal life"??!!

Those who believe that the wicked will be tortured alive forever in hell are the ones who believe that the wicked will receive eternal life (in hell) even if they've acted horrendously their whole life. I believe the Bible which specifically states that their end is destruction.

Dear Timotheus,

You are wrong, but you can believe what you want. It says that death and hell shall deliver up the ones in them, and they shall all be judged according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire (our Sun). You don't know half of what is going on with Heaven. {See Rev. 20:13....}. Hell is the bottomless pit; the center of our Earth roughly. That's where the molten lava and hot magma get hot from. The Earth has a center and a top, but no bottom. Thus, 'bottomless pit.' Everyone thinks they are on top of the Earth because of gravity. No bottom. It is symbolic speaking. Well, we are at different levels in our lives. You'll find out when Jesus returns!! Be joyful and know that you are just fine.

God Be With You & Your Loved Ones,

Michael

 

[eddie17]

To the OP the answer is NO

 

[MichaelCadry]

Actually, there are several.

Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. *11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The 'Beast,' is the anti-Christ, who is human, as is his false prophet.

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be*in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

They aren't ever described as being relieved from torment by no longer existing. Nope. The 'Second Death' is eternal conscious torment, as any simple reading of Scripture reveals.

Dear Aimiel,

Excellent Post!! Thanks for doing my work for me.

May God Boost Your Countenance!!

Michael

 

[Ben Masada]

It is SOUND doctrine, since it's outlined, described and promoted by Scriptures.

Please, show me where is it described and promote in the Scriptures. Of course not! So, it is not a sound doctrine. It is a Christian doctrine, and a Christian doctrine is not a sound doctrine in the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

 

[Timotheos]

well, there's Rev 14:9-11

Spoiler

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and
they have no rest day nor night
who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

but you don't like Rev 14:9-11, do you?

I don't mind Revelation 14:9-11, but it doesn't say that bad people will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.
Re-read it.

 

[Timotheos]

Actually, there are several.

Actually, none of those verses actually say that bad people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.

Let's look at them one by one to see if they say that:

Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Do you see torment anywhere in this verse? Do you see the torment continuing on and on forever in this verse? No. Not at all, sorry. This verse doesn't say that bad people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

This verse doesn't say they will be conscious of torment forever. It says that they will be cast into a furnace. This supports the doctrine that the wicked will be burnt up much better than it supports the doctrine that they will be tortured alive. This verse doesn't say that the weeping and gnashing continue on forever. Of course there is weeping and gnashing! They are about to be sent into a furnace where they will be destroyed. This verse doesn't say that bad people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.

Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. *11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

These verses do not say that torment continues on forever. It says that the SMOKE goes up forever. That is a crucial difference. They are destroyed and the smoke from them being burnt up rises forever. Revelation is full of figurative language, and this indicates complete destruction. The same language is used of the destruction of Edom, elseewhere in the Bible.

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

This is the only verse that says that the torment lasts day and night forever. But it doesn't say that this happens to people. Look at the verse. It says this happens to the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Even if you take the symbolic book of revelation completely literally, this verse still doesn't say that bad people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.

The 'Beast,' is the anti-Christ, who is human, as is his false prophet.

Speculation, at best. There have been thousands of speculations of what the beast is, and what the Book of Revelation mean.

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be*in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Are you able to see that this specifically states that the lake of fire is The Second Death? It is not Eternal Life in Hell being tortured alive forever. It is DEATH. And how does this even support the doctrine that the wicked dead are kept alive forever being tortured? It says that they will be sent into a lake of fire that burns with fire and brimstone. That'll burn up anyone sent into it. The verse supports the destruction of the wicked much better than it supports their everlasting torture.
This verse doesn't say that bad people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.

They aren't ever described as being relieved from torment by no longer existing. Nope.

Actually, the Bible says specifically that!
Psalm 37:10 says "In just a little while, the wicked will Be No More. They will no longer exist, They will be no more.

The 'Second Death' is eternal conscious torment, as any simple reading of Scripture reveals.

The Second Death is death, the second time. As any simple reading of Scripture reveals. If the second death were "eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever", it would be called "Eternal Life in Hell Being Tortured Alive Forever", not "The Second Death".

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but none of the Scriptures you cling to actually say that bad people will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead. But if you read the Bible, there are hundreds of verses that specifically state that the wicked will perish, that they will be destroyed, that they will be burnt up, and that they will be no more.

 

[Timotheos]

Dear Timotheus,

You are wrong

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but when I said that the wicked will perish and will be no more, I was quoting the Bible. So if I'm wrong about that, then the Bible is wrong. Are you really sure you want say this?