Is Jesus God?

[Right Divider]

First you made no point! Let's be clear on that... You never responded to my post! Saying NO... is not a response!

You are INCORRECT yet again. No was an answer to your silly question.

Really...

John 1:1

I have another train of thought for you think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition?

I read NOTHING "into" John 1. I simply believe what it CLEARLY and INCONTROVERTIBLY says.

 

[keypurr]

You forgot this post, Keypurr.





You keep pointing to the dove, yet cannot show with scripture anywhere that it says that the dove entered Jesus.

Because it doesn't, it says the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove, landed on Jesus.

Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

JR what do you think Jesus was anointed with?

No, the Word became flesh, Keypurr. Stop inserting your own words into scripture.

The logos is the spirit son, the express image of God

If you're wrong and Jesus is also God, then this is blasphemy.

There is ONLY ONE true GOD, Jesus has a God.

"Beside me there is no other."
And
"I will not give my glory to another."

These are things (and there are many passages like them) that GOD says.

And then Jesus comes along and says things like:

"Glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

So, either God is a liar, and will share His glory with another deity, or Jesus is a liar, and will burn in hell for blasphemy, or Jesus is God, and will be glorified with His Father in Heaven with the glory He once had before the world was.

I'm gonna go with what scripture says, Keypurr, you should too.

The logos son is what the dove brought to Jesus and he SPOKE through Jesus.

Why do you disregard John 17:5, Isaiah 42:8, Isaiah 45:5, and countless other passages that SCREAM that Jesus is God?

There are no passages that scream Jesus is God.

Jesus, who is God, the Son of God, the Son of Man, the Word, does not lie.



Scripture doesn't lie, Keypurr.

You have been deceived friend.

Seems like you're sticking with your personal tradition.



Utter blasphemy.

You should repent.

FROM WHAT? telling THE TRUTH?

Jesus is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH.

No he is not YHWH, he was sent by YHWH to bring us light. He is a created from of God, not God but a god. If you wish look at Heb 1, YHWH calls him O God, like a god.

 

[keypurr]

God created the universe Keypurr. To say otherwise is false teaching.

Genesis 1:1: In the beginning GOD...

John 1:1: In the beginning was the WORD...

:think:

So did Paul lie also?

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

It does no such thing.

Paul is simply saying to have the same mindset as Christ.



Saying it doesn't make it so, Keypurr.

Your in the darkness JR, you would rather hang on to fairy tales of religion than the words of the master.

 

[keypurr]

You obviously misinterpret John 17:3 since you completely disregard JOHN 1

Start with the FIRST chapter of JOHN and you might not be so CONFUSED.

Nope I disregard no verse. It is your weakness not to question the error ridden doctrines of tradition.

 

[keypurr]

Really...

John 1:1

I have another train of thought for you think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition? For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament, “the Word” (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he" in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation. Did John write concerning “the word” that “he” was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning “the word” that “it” was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use “he” to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make “the word” a “he” here?

It is a fact that all English translations from the Greek before the King James version of 1611 actually read this way: (notice Him and He are now “It”).

Tyndale 1534:
Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men

Cranmer 1539
John 1:1 IN the begynnynge was the worde and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it and without it, was made nothynge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was the lyght of men


Bishops 1568:
Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,

Geneva 1587:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of
men.

And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

The word logos appears many, many more times in this very Gospel of John. And nowhere else do the translators capitalize it or use the masculine personal pronoun "he" to agree with it! The rest of the New Testament is the same. Logos is variously translated as "statement" (Luke 20:20), “question" (Matt 21:24), "preaching" (1 Tim 5:17), "command" (Gal 5:14),
"message" (Luke 4:32), "matter" (Acts 15:6), "reason" (Acts 10:29),so there is actually no reason to make John one say that "the Word" is the person Jesus himself, unless of course the translators are wanting to make a point to. In all cases logos is an “it.” In the light of this background it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, a reason by which He brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who he is.

"The Word" for John is an “it” not a "he." On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of God" and this is in Revelations 19:13. This name has been given to him after his resurrection and ascension, but we will not find it before his birth. It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus. "And the Word became flesh." A great plan that God had in his heart from before the creation at last is fulfilled. Be very clear that it does not say that God became flesh.

There is even strong evidence suggesting that John himself reacted to those who were already misusing his gospel to mean that Jesus was himself the Word who had personally preexist the world. When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in the beginning was not a “who” he put it this way:"What was from the beginning,what we have heard,what we have seen with our eyes,what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life…"

Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14.

who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. (Rev 1:2)

"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one [God) who judges him; the word (logos) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos? The very next verse tell us!

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Jesus is not our Judge, but our savior!

Joh 3:17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance,God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,31 because He(God)has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Word of God in this verse means God's plan of salvation for us (NAB), i.e. the kingdom of God message. So what does "logos" mean?

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea (New American Bible (footnote) & Vine’s Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"

"In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."

The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:

"Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."

Predication - to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).

So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:

"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."

With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.


John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word (logos) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, He is not the Logos!


1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

What does scripture teach you about... What was from the beginning?

Pay attention as we need to get a little deeper comparing both John 1:1 with 1 John 1:1

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word." 1 John 1:1 – "What was from the beginning, what we have heard."

Notice that in John what is from the beginning is the word, and in 1 John what is from the beginning is something that they heard (a message).

Look closely...

1 John 2:7 - "Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard."

In 1 John 1:1 what was from the beginning is something that they heard, here in 1 John 2:7 the old commandment is what they have had from the beginning,(sound familiar?) and the old commandment is the "WORD" that they what? Heard! The same as in 1 John 1:1.

So, What commandment is John speaking about?

John is speaking about what Jesus called the greatest commandment, ( Mark 12:29-30 ) the commandment of love which God gave the Hebrews from the beginning. The message of love that the proclamation of the Kingdom of God brings with it.

How do we know for sure that this is the message and/or the commandment that they heard from the beginning? Because John tells you so in 1 John 3:11 and 1 John 3:23:

"For this is the message you have HEARD from the BEGINNING: we should love one another."

"And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another."

Loving one another is how the world will know that we are followers of God’s Christ.

John 13:30 – "This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

According to Paul (Romans 13:9), the law of love is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law and it is the Law in the coming Kingdom of God which the Messiah has come to proclaim. These are Jesus’ own words.

John is talking about the message or Logos (known by you as “word”!)

By making John 1 a Trinity support verse, you lose so much truth!

Paul
oly: :readthis:

WELCOME BACK MY BROTHER, long time since we have posted together.

 

[keypurr]

Spoken like a true democrat! No counter point, no nothing!

Your so... lazy!!! It's apparent to all you can't go beyond what your told to believe in your Church! You have no clue to what you actually believe or even how to respond! you only spew out what your told to believe, with no idea how to defend it! so... to simply say NO! As if somehow you won the debate! WOW!!!

You need to change your name to Rightfulfollower, as you divide nothing!!! You are a true spiritual sissy. Next time please actually try to defend your ideas/beliefs for once... Tell me how Jesus HAS a GOD... Yet you claim he Is God

So like a true follower divider you are... run to your pastor, and beg for help on how to respond!

oly::sherlock:
Paul

Hey I like Democrats, sometimes.

Paul don't sent him to the Pastor of he will only get tradition.

 

[Bright Raven]

Hey I like Democrats, sometimes.

Paul don't sent him to the Pastor of he will only get tradition.

And what will he get coming to those like you? Certainly no the truth.

 

[Rosenritter]

God, YHWH, is a spirit and so is his express image. The son of Man is the spirit son that dwelled in and spoke through Jesus. The spirit son was at the creation, Jesus was born to Mary. Jesus is our High Priest and was elevated to Lord of all creation by his God YHWH.

Keypurr, you're essentially saying is that Jesus was a human priest who was POSSESSED by a created spirit. That isn't what we are told in scripture and there's a reason it sounds vile.

 

[Rosenritter]

Really...

John 1:1

I have another train of thought for you think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition? For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament, “the Word” (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he" in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation. Did John write concerning “the word” that “he” was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning “the word” that “it” was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use “he” to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make “the word” a “he” here?

I think you went too far too fast. If you want to consider that the Creator of the worlds simply "was" before male and female existed and that our Creator brought male and female into being, you might have a case for "without gender." However, God has presented himself as using the masculine gender: names and titles like "Father" and "Son" have relevance, and Jesus was also male.

2 John 1:3 KJV
(3) Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Revelation 19:13 KJV
(13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Those are all masculine references. It isn't a matter of wrong translation or interpretation, that's how God chooses to represent himself to us.

 

[Rosenritter]

So tell let's just get to the real issue... Tell me how Jesus has a you believe is God, when HE clearly personally claims to have a GOD in our scriptures! I only appear uncivil to you because You can't answer!

From his birth until his ascension back to his former glory, Jesus was in the form and role of man. If not for this role, he couldn't have died in our place. Man has a relation to God, and by filling this role, he serves as both our sacrifice for sin and our High Priest. It's symbolic, but it is a symbolism that God choose from the beginning of the world.

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1. God spoke those words to Isaiah for a reason. The reason was unique identification.

2. Jesus spoke those words in Revelation for a reason. The reason was unique identification.

When you at first presume that two instances are different people but they present the exact same unique identification, what does this imply?

 

[Rosenritter]

So tell let's just get to the real issue... Tell me how Jesus has a you believe is God, when HE clearly personally claims to have a GOD in our scriptures! I only appear uncivil to you because You can't answer!

Perhaps a different style of answer might reach you better than the first:

Psalms 24:1-10 KJV
(1) A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
(2) For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
(3) Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
(4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
(5) He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(6) This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
(7) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(8) Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
(9) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(10) Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Now compare the Psalm with this statement:

John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Psalm 22 is the crucifixion.
Psalm 23 is the valley of death.
Psalm 24 is the ascension to his God,
... and also identifies he that ascends as none other than the LORD.

Does the bible tell us of anyone else who has ascended to heaven? Certainly not David who wrote the Psalm, and he was called a man after God's own heart. (John 3:13, Acts 2:34, Acts 13:22). That is the unique privilege and identification of the King of Glory. Who is this King of Glory?

Tell me how Jesus has a you believe is God, when HE clearly personally claims to have a GOD in our scriptures!

The King of Glory receives righteousness from the God of his salvation (Psalm 24:5)
The King of Glory is the LORD Strong and Mighty, the LORD of Hosts (Psalm 24:7, 10)

 

[Right Divider]

Nope I disregard no verse. It is your weakness not to question the error ridden doctrines of tradition.

You have continually rejected the CLEAR, PLAIN and INCONTROVERTIBLE meaning of John 1:1-14

 

[JudgeRightly]

Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Good scripture.

Thanks for posting it!

JR what do you think Jesus was anointed with?

Well, I don't "think" anything. I KNOW that He was anointed with the HOLY SPIRIT (the third member of the trinity) and with power.

The logos is the spirit son, the express image of God

Jesus is the Logos, Keypurr.

There is ONLY ONE true GOD,

I completely agree. Why do you keep asserting I don't?

Jesus has a God.

See Rosenritter's post above.

The logos son is what the dove brought to Jesus and he SPOKE through Jesus.

Keypurr, you don't have a very good grasp of the english language, do you?

At least, that's what it seems like.

Because if you did, you wouldn't make such ridiculous claims.

The verses say the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove[/U].

There are no passages that scream Jesus is God.

Yeah, there are.

You have been deceived friend.

Says the one who has deceived himself.

FROM WHAT? telling THE TRUTH?

For blaspheming God.

No he is not YHWH,

He is I AM, Keypurr. He said so Himself.

he was sent by YHWH to bring us light.

He was sent by His Father to save mankind.

He is a created from of God,

You just contradicted yourself, Keypurr. You said, "There is ONLY ONE true GOD."

So either Jesus is God, or He is a blasphemer of the one true God. There is no other possibility.

not God but a god.

Your words:

"There is ONLY ONE true GOD."

Either Jesus is THE ONE TRUE GOD, or He is no god at all, but a blasphemer of the one true God.

If you wish look at Heb 1, YHWH calls him O God, like a god.

The word "oh" is an interjection, Keypurr. Do you know what an interjection is?

Do you know that Hebrews 1:8-9 is poetry, not prose? It's also a quote of God the Father.

The word used in the Greek, in verse 8, the same word used for God elsewhere in the Bible, and it has the same definite article used when referring to the one and only God. Why do you insist that "O God" is calling the Son of God "a god", when it CLEARLY says "THE God."

So did Paul lie also?

First of all, you can stop with changing the size of the text, Keypurr. It's all the same size on the Tapatalk app, so there's not point in using it, and it just adds unnecessary formatting that I have to try to sift through.

Second, you have to call Paul a liar only if Jesus is not God. If Jesus is God, then both Paul AND Moses are correct. If Jesus is not God, then Moses is correct, and Paul lied.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Paul is not the author of Hebrews. Whoever is clearly recognized that Jesus is God, and did not contradict Genesis 1:1 when he wrote the above.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Again, Paul is a liar ONLY IF Jesus is not God. Otherwise you're saying that Paul contradicted Moses.

Your in the darkness JR, you would rather hang on to fairy tales of religion than the words of the master.

:blabla:

Says the one who has forced his own beliefs on scripture.

Nope I disregard no verse.

Yeah, you do.

It is your weakness not to question the error ridden doctrines of tradition.

No one has appealed to tradition, Keypurr.

We've simply held that what scripture says is true.

You sound like a broken record.

I do not recall saying the standard for being good does not come from God, if I did it was my error.

You did by asserting the first of the two options I gave you, which was "something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."

Would you like to change your answer to the second option, which is "something is good because God commands that it is good"?

Still waiting on a response to this post, Keypurr.

 

[Right Divider]

@JudgeRightly

keypurr has this strange "the Logos son took over Jesus' body" theory that is just plain ridiculous.

I've asked him before, but he will not explain what happened to the spirit that was in Jesus prior to this "take-over". Very cultic indeed.

 

[Pierac]

Hey, Pierac, before I respond, could you please do me a favor and not use the blue text color you used? I'm using tapatalk with the dark theme and it's extremely difficult to see.

You can, however, use color names (instead of the hex codes) in your bbcode tags and your words will usually show up as white text in Tapatalk, while keeping the color on the desktop site.

Thanks!

Now, onto your post!



Let's take this a different route, shall we? (I promise that the question I'm about to ask you is 100% related to the trinity being biblical, so please bear with me.)

Pierac, how does God know if something is good?

Is something (for example, humility) good because God recognizes it as good?
OR
is something good because God commands it to be good (or, as Socrates put it, because God 'likes' it)?

Why should we take a different route? You request so because you have no answer... NO Trinitarian can explain how Jesus has a GOD!

I will answer your question... and I expect you to do the same!

The answer to your question is...

NASB Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

You don't get this concept do you... You think God should do as you please as to your beliefs! Think about it my friend... Good is what God wants it to be!

You fail... I will tell you why....

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

Jesus calls himself "a man" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, He is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his Father.

Now, please explain how Jesus is God... Yet clearly states/claims to have a GOD!

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Right Divider]

Why should we take a different route? You request so because you have no answer... NO Trinitarian can explain how Jesus has a GOD!

It's been answered MANY times.

Jesus is BOTH God and man. In His HUMANITY He was an Israelite, just like His kinsmen.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Why should we take a different route? You request so because you have no answer... NO Trinitarian can explain how Jesus has a GOD!

Sure we can. Saying we can't doesn't make it so.

I will answer your question... and I expect you to do the same!

The answer to your question is...

NASB Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

So, if it pleases God, can He define murder as good? and honoring one's parents as bad?

It seems you avoided the question.

You don't get this concept do you... You think God should do as you please as to your beliefs! Think about it my friend... Good is what God wants it to be!

So, you choose the second option? that something is good because God "commands" it to be good?

You fail... I will tell you why....

On the authority of Jesus [H]imself

If Jesus is not God, then shouldn't your standard of authority be God, not Jesus, who, according to you, is JUST a man? or do you think that Jesus' words are higher than God's?

we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world.

Whatever that means...

Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit"[/I] (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit."

Ok, so what does that have to do with whether Jesus is God or not?

The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories.

So you deny that God became a man?

What God has separated man has joined together!

Seems you've done the opposite, you've separated what God has joined together.

One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23).

Honestly, that's what you've done, not us.

You've turned God (Jesus) into a mere man.

Has it ever dawned on you

:AMR:

as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing?

So you reject John 1:14? Last I checked, that's part of God's word.

The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image.

Has it ever occurred to you that you've got it backwards, that YOU'RE the one who has turned God the Son of God into just a man?

We are made in God's image, not the other way around.

Before God made man, He made an image of Himself to use to make man. God is Spirit, and does not inherently have an image to view, and since man needed a physical body, God made a physical image that He used to make man. Did you notice on Day 6 that God made the body before giving it life?

It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness.

Which is what I was asking about.

How does God know He is good?

God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

Sure, God's ways are higher than ours. But they're not lower.

Which raises the question, how does God define "'good'-ness"? Does he recognize something as being good (ie, the standard is external to Himself)? Or does He command something to be good (ie, He determines what is good and what is not good)?

Jesus calls himself "a man" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, He is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his Father.

I totally agree. Jesus was, in fact, a man.

But don't stop there. Jesus was ALSO, in fact, God in the flesh.

Now, please explain how Jesus is God... Yet clearly states/claims to have a GOD!

Well, I was trying to, but you didn't exactly want to go that route..

Shall we try again?

How does God define what is good?

Does He recognize something as good?
Or does He command it to be good?

Here's something else for you to consider:

If Jesus was not God and a man, but instead just a man, then His sacrifice could not save anyone.

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him—For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever—That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit. . . . But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah - Psalm 49:7-9,15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm49:7-9,15&version=NKJV

Paul

o/

 

[Pierac]

So, if it pleases God, can He define murder as good? and honoring one's parents as bad?

It seems you avoided the question.

YOU SPEAK AS A CHILD!

NASB Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

KJV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

KJV Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?


KJV Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou (JudgeRightly) speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. ( Also Job 1:21)

KJV 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Paul said no more than 6 times... ALL things are of GOD! You can't handle this path you look upon!


NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.



oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Right Divider]

Joh 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

​

Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

​

So simple that even a child can understand it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I already answered this question in my last post... but want to get more specific to this question! Yep, I'm posting already to your not yet posted reply before you actually make a fool of yourself.

Good for you. By the way, could you please stop with the multicolored posts? Sherman just got onto someone else for the very same thing, and I'd hate to see you get into trouble for such a minor infraction.

No One but God is Good

Agreed.

One day a "rich young ruler" came to Jesus and asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 18:18). Jesus replied, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God aloneh" (v. 19).

Seems pretty simple to me. :thumb:

The traditional explanation I was taught is that Jesus stops this young man right in his tracks because he needed to realize that Jesus really was God. It is as if Jesus said, "Don't you realize who I am? I am God Himself. Don't call me ‘good’ without remembering this. Recognize who it is you are talking to!"

I've never heard it explained that way...

Sound a bit strained? Whilst admitting that Jesus’ reply is difficult I think there's a better explanation. Jesus was saying that he himself is not God. This is the natural, obvious sense so let's look at it in more detail.

Or, perhaps the way you were taught was correct.

Consider this:

Plausible deniability (to an extent)

If Jesus had claimed to be God, right then and there, with everyone watching, what would have happened?

The people around Him would likely have picked up stones and stoned Him for claiming to be God. Something they almost did later, because He called Himself "I AM."

Why would that have been a bad thing? Well, for one, it would have prevented Him from doing what He came to do, which was to die on a tree for all mankind.

The word for "good" here is the Greek word agathos. It is an adjective which . . . when used of God refers to the fact that He is completely, perfectly, and essentially good.

I completely agree. But going back to my question from before, how does God know He is good?

Jesus says that only God is agathos or good. It refers to God's holiness, his "otherness," that which sets Him apart from all of His creation.

No argument from me there.

On the practical level it means that God cannot help being good, God cannot sin, nor can He even be tempted to sin. God alone is "incorruptible" and immortal (1 Tim 1:17).

So you're putting God in a box? Saying He "can't" do something?

On the other hand, Jesus reject for himself the description agathos, that inner quality of perfection which belongs only to God. "In essence he rejects this divine attribute of holiness and, on the negative side, he rejects incorruptibility."

This sounds like a quote from some person.

Could you provide a source please?

And could you provide Scripture to back up this claim that Jesus "rejected" the quality He attributed to God?

This means that Jesus was a real human being and had the option of being either good or bad.

I agree.

Jesus’ temptations were real;

Agreed.

he could have succumbed and failed.

I agree.

For he was not agathos,

This is called begging the question.

You have not established that Jesus was not "αγαθος".

that is not good, and not God in the absolute sense of the word.

This is based on the false premise that Jesus was not "αγαθος".

You should retract this argument until you establish that He was not.

This means that he was liable to corruption (Acts 2:27).

Correlation does not equal causation.

Why do I say that?

Because being liable to corruption does not mean that one cannot be God. God WILL NOT (not "cannot") sin.

But it also means

Not really.

[H]is victories were real.

Agreed.

The Bible teaches that Jesus learned obedience (Heb.5:8).

Agreed.

God the Father has never had to learn goodness.

Conflating "goodness" and "obedience" doesn't work, because they don't mean the same thing.j

Truly, there was a certain goodness that Jesus did possess. His was a goodness unique in human history.

In what way was Jesus not "agathos"?

We know that he "increased [grew] in wisdom, in stature, and in favor with God and with man" (Luke 2:52). This was the sinless goodness that had been possible for Adam, originally. This is the goodness that qualified him to be the Good Shepherd who gave his life as a sacrifice for us. But the word describing him as "The Good Shepherd" (John 10:11) is a different Greek word, kalos, meaning morally excellent and worthy of recognition. This type of goodness certainly describes our Savior.

Agreed. How does that disqualify Him from bing "agathos," though?

So what does this all mean? Evidently when the young man addressed Jesus as "Good Teacher" Jesus took offense. His response indicates a rebuke in fact: "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." (This crucial phrase ei me heis ho theos may also be translated "but the one God," which is a strong unitary monotheistic affirmation from Jesus’ lips: "no one is good but the one God.")

How do you know it was "unitary"?

The greek does not have any words for one that mean a "one of plurality".

The Hebrew, on the other hand, DOES. It's the word "echad", which means a "unity of multiple."

Every time in the Old Testament where it refers to God as being "one God", the word "echad" is used. Never "yachad" or "bad", both of which mean one of unity.

The Trinitarian Raymond E. Brown in his book, An Introduction to New Testament Christology writes, "The text strongly distinguishes between Jesus and God, and that a description of himself to which Jesus objected was applicable to God. From this text, one would never suspect that the evangelist referred to Jesus and God."

I'm honestly not too concerned with what any man says. I'm more concerned with what the Bible says.

Surely we do not honor the Lord Jesus when we attribute to him what he himself rejected and what belongs only to his Father in heaven?

And if you're wrong, and Jesus is God, what honor does it bring to constantly assert that He is not? Surely dishonor, let alone blasphemy...

If confirmation that this is the correct interpretation is sought, and we need only to turn to revelations 15. After his resurrection and ascension into heaven Jesus is seen leading the worship directed to God his Father.

I don't see Jesus leading anything there...

All the victorious Saints of God singing "the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, ‘Great and marvelous are Your works, O LORD God, the Almighty… Who will not fear, O LORD and glorify Your Name?For You alone are Holy" (v. 3-4).

Where do you see Jesus in this passage as being one of the ones singing?

Even now in heaven the Lord Jesus’ confession is that his Father "alone" is holy.

I don't see "Father" in that passage at all. I see "Lord God Almighty", "King of the Saints", and "Lord", but I don't see "Father".

How can you assert that they're singing ONLY to the Father, when the Father is not specified?

As the lamb of God, Jesus still worships God his Father as the only one who is good!

More arguments based on a false premise.

Only his Father, the Lord God Almighty, is the source of all moral excellence.

So God commands things (such as humility) to be good?

How much better to agree with our Lord Jesus and confess that there is only one who is good, that is God.

No argument there.

Jesus rejects the identification of himself with the one true and good God in Luke 18:19.

That's not what the passage says. There's no denial or confirmation that Jesus is God in that verse. Jesus is just stating a fact.

Amazing how far ahead your post "I AM"

Paul

Blasphemy will get you temp banned, or possibly permabanned. You should remove that from your post.