I haven't changed any Scripture nor do I intend to change Scripture.
The difference is that I understand them in their context and it's become very evident to myself and to others here that you don't.
Is Jesus God?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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I haven't changed any Scripture nor do I intend to change Scripture.
The difference is that I understand them in their context and it's become very evident to myself and to others here that you don't.
So does a human enter heaven? What does Corinthians say? Your answer will either keep Jesus out of heaven forever if He's human or put Jesus in heaven if He's not human.
No.
You have not established this as fact, and need to do so. Until you do, you are assuming your claim as true.
In other words, saying it doesn't make it so.
I don't.
My position is that He, for all of eternity past, was spirit. Then, 2000 years ago (roughly) He acquired a new nature, human, so that he was and still is now, and will always be both spirit and human.
Agreed.
He goes back with a glorified body of flesh and bone, the only thing "man-made" being the holes in His hands and His feet.
Appeal to incredulity. A logical fallacy. Come on, I know you can do better than that!
Agreed.
Never said He was.
The Father and holy Spirit, of course.
But Jesus is both Spirit AND flesh now.
Right, a glorified body, similar to the one Christ has now.
:thumb:
Of course.
So are you asserting that the body He was raised in was a different(ie, not the same one)/separate body than the one He was born into, lived, and died with? If so, what happened to that body?
So, Jesus, being the creator of flesh, cannot manipulate His creation how He wills?
Why not? I see no reason why He could not be both man and God at this point, especially with a glorified body.
Except that Scripture doesn't say that every time he needed to speak with us, He put on flesh.
It says, quite clearly, that the body He appeared to many people in after His resurrection was the same one, just altered. It even still had the holes in it from the cross.
You're putting restrictions that only apply to men on Jesus Christ, who is both man AND God, the Creator of flesh.
Then you need to get your eyes checked, because he didn't, nor does he want to.
:AMR:
Jesus said this while in the flesh.
So are you saying Jesus was not God at that point in time?
You keep asserting that this means that "flesh cannot enter heaven."
But that's not what it says.
It says "flesh and blood cannot inhereit the kingdom of heaven."
Inherit != enter
Hypocrite.
Are you denying that Jesus was not God when He said what is written in John 4?
Are you changing the verse to say this?: "flesh and blood cannot enter heaven"
You should stick to just reading what scripture says plainly and stop interpreting it to what you think it means.
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. - Revelation 6:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation6:9-11&version=NKJV
Unless you would like to assert that the souls under the altar were not human, then yes, a human can enter heaven.
It says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.
It DOES NOT say, however, that flesh and bone cannot enter.
False dilemma.
Jesus is both God and man in heaven.
I have not simply left you to carry on your corruption as you please.
Your approach is totally corrupt, evasive and prejudicial. Your approach is also antichrist and anti-God and anti-the-Holy KJV N.T..
The following is what Matthew literally and clearly confirmed, in the Holy KJV N.T., about the physical, son of man Jesus:
Matthew: 12 KJV N.T.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
It seem very clear that the above say: one can blaspheme the son of man Jesus and one shall be forgiven (guaranteed). (And indeed Paul did blaspheme the physical son of man Jesus and he was forgiven and rewarded.) The above says, also, if one blaspheme the Holy Spirit one will not be forgiven in this world or in any world to come.
Clearly the son of man Jesus is not and does not have the status of God, Who is the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.
If you are not a false prophet who is spewing corruption, then you will fully recognize and accept the above very clear and literal revelation from the Holy KJV N.T.
You are a false prophet, who reject and ignore the above very clear revelation, by Matthew, from the Holy KJV N.T.
I have started a new thread on the matter.
Those who wish to come to truth through fair and sensible inquiries that are anchored on the revelations in the Holy KJV N.T., can clicks here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Paul-(in-the-Holy-KJV-N-T-)-Jesus-was-not-God
Hey, if you and some otherS want to fall through the cracks, that is O.T..
However it is not fair to stop everyone seeking and venting truth (as confirmed in the Holy KJV N.T.) adequately.
KayTee, what happened to Christ's body that laid in the tomb, if it is not the same one that He had after His resurrection?
This is an argument from silence, KayTee. I know you can make better arguments than that!
Why wouldn't it be? God made a body and breathed life into it, and so man was created. Man requires a body, not necessarily to exist (See the passage from Revelation I quoted in a previous post), but so that we can interact with the physical.
Or do you think that the Bride of Christ (Israel) will just be floating around as ghosts around the New Jerusalem?
I dunno about you, but this verse to me seems to indicate that we'll need (or at least, be able) to eat...
In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. - Revelation 22:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation22:2&version=NKJV
Please quote the scripture that says this.
See above.
Rosenritter
New member
Are men and angels supposed to worship other men?
Rosenritter
New member
The "all blue" text has the effect of my eyes skipping the post entirely. It's OK for occasional emphasis (if bolded) but it isn't effective when it's all blue.
Rosenritter
New member
If we are being careful, it should be noted that neither "100% God and 100% man" (a popular buzz phrase) or "as One Person, having two natures" (as you declared above) are precisely scriptural.
If the concern is whether God can mediate on behalf of man, God didn't need to be manifest in the flesh to understand humanity. He created humanity and he knows how we are made at the most intimate level. His being manifest in the flesh does help us to believe that he understands us... it is for our benefit, not because of his need.
Rosenritter
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God had already appeared as a man at least a couple times before Moses: he wrestled Jacob over an entire night and appeared to Abraham on the plains of Mamre and even ate the food presented to him.
Rosenritter
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The saints that are slain upon the altar are slain upon the earth, not slain in heaven.
1. The altar is symbolic, not literal, and
2. That altar is upon the earth, not in heaven.
True, He appeared 'as' a man, but not truly man as descended from Adam/man.
GOD actually became man/Adam(Hebrew) in the incarnation through Mary for the first and only time.
Rosenritter
New member
I can allow that God became a man through Jesus, but it seems rather silly (and unsubstantiated) to claim that God is still a man.
Hebrews 2:7-9 KJV
(7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
(8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
(9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The "little lower than the angels" was a temporary thing for the purpose of the suffering of death. I can see the title "the Son of Man" used a few times (three times) after the gospels, but it is a term that is being used to refer back to He who we beheld as Jesus rather than a definition of his being (Acts 7:56, Rev 1:13, Rev 14:14).
If you want to say that "God is permanently a man" then it would help if you carefully defined what you mean by "man" (because maybe you have a different meaning that what it sounds like to me.)
Already defined 'man' Scripturally in my former post.
The word Hebrew word 'adam' is translated into the English word 'man' in the OT a minimum of 393 times.
The term 'Son of man' is actually 'son of adam'.
There is one humanity all descended from the first man/adam whose personal name became Adam.
There is no humanity which did not descend from Adam.
The Lord Jesus is a descendant of Adam thru His human mother Mary.
GOD became man in the incarnation and has not ceased being man.
By this, finite man can know the infinite GOD face to face.
I will see GOD's face when, in the future, I see the GOD/man Jesus face to face.
The Lord Jesus is the bridge between finite man and the infinite GOD.
There is no other 'face of GOD'.
One will not see the face of GOD any other way but in the face of the Lord Jesus.
GOD, the WORD added a human nature and physical body in the incarnation. This GOD/man was to be called 'Jesus/Yeshua/Salvation'. There was no Jesus before this. The Angel of YHVH was not called Jesus. The name Jesus itself is applied to the GOD/man. Take away Jesus' humanity and there is no more Jesus. The Father's name is not 'Jesus'. Only the WORD made flesh is called Jesus. Take away His physicality and there is no more Jesus. Only infinite Spirit Being would remain. Finite man cannot comprehend infinite Being. Infinite Spirit Being condescended in the incarnation to make it possible for 'Immanuel/GOD with us'.
Even saved glorified man will not be infinite. Only GOD is.
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
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Rosenritter
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If you were to say that God remains symbolically man (that he may be our mediator and elder brother) and that God retains his self and experience from when he was manifest in the flesh I would agree in that aspect.
But the bit about permanently being stuck in a physical state sounds wrong, and I cannot think of how you would support that from scripture. The resurrected Jesus appeared in the midst of the disciples in a locked room and came and went as he pleased. When he spoke of being "born again" to enter the Kingdom of God he said that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-8 KJV
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
(8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Does Jesus enter the Kingdom of God? It would seem very strange if everyone else who were to enter the Kingdom of God were to be changed this way except for Jesus the actual King of the Kingdom of God. And after his ascension Jesus was literally fulfilling verse 8.
So far I can agree with you in all those other aspects... just not that there is a physical Jesus stuck out there somewhere as a leftover artifact from AD 30.
Right Divider
Body part
:juggle: :dizzy:
The Bible is quite clear that Jesus departed the earth in a physical body and that "this same Jesus" will return "in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.".
What scripture says that He somehow changed on His way back to heaven?
Act 1:9-12 KJV And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (12) Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
The complimentary scripture that describes His return is in Zechariah 14:
Zec 14:1-4 KJV Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. (2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Rosenritter
New member
And simply answered that God has the power to manifest Himself in the flesh whenever He chooses, including when He comes in the clouds and sets foot upon the earth again. There's no necessity to maintain a physical form in the meantime. God is fully and properly Spirit and doesn't need a physical form for existence.
If I had a car that I intended to use ten years from now I would have to store it in a garage... because I cannot manifest that car from thin air when I choose. But surely you wouldn't insist on putting such a limitation on God? Do you allow for God (as a Spirit) to manifest in the flesh when he chooses?
Right Divider
Body part
So, once again, you parade your abstract ideas before us with NO PROOF whatsoever that they are actually true.
Unlike you, I rely on what God SAYS that He does and not what He could do if He wanted to.
Say Bye to your thread. It's gone. You need to learn to leave off the bizarre colors. I had to take them off to reply to you. Post in a single color or none at all. Attributing the Christian doctrine of Christ's Divinity to the enemy is trolling. We will remove you as a troll if you don't stop.