ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

revpete

New member
It was right there in post 4, didn't you see it?
I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.
I believe that those who believe in Him will have eternal life and those who reject Him will perish just as the Bible says.
There are many many scriptures that plainly state that the end of the lost is destruction, or annihilation, if you prefer that term. Here they are, in short I believe that the lost perish rather than live forever in hell being tormented simply because I believe what the Bible says:


Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment. Notice that only the narrow gate leads to life, not both gates.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)​

I want you to see that all of these passages support the doctrine that the wicked are destroyed rather than kept alive in hell being tormented forever. These verses are not built one on top of the other, like dominoes, if you topple one verse they all fall down. Each of these verses supports the others in a solid wall. Each one of these verses taken alone should be enough to convince anyone that the penalty is death, destruction, perishing, etc.
One word from God is sufficient for you to believe. But this is not one verse, even though that would be enough. These are not isolated or obscure verses. These verses are not taken out of context, or manipulated to say the opposite of what they say. This is the Word of God, and I believe it. It is enough to say "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".



To destroy (ἀπολέσαι) {ap-ol'-loo-mee} The word comes from the root ὄλεθρος {ol'-eth-ros} The class of words to which this belongs denotes "utter and hopeless ruin; but they convey no idea whether the ruined object ceases to exist or continues a worthless existence" Professor Marshall, in Expositor IV. 3:283, thinks Luke's variant, "to cast," indicates that our Lord originally used an Aramaic word that properly meant "to set on fire." Both soul and body in hell. The word is also translated as perish and is used four times in the NT

Biblically "death" carries the idea of separation such as in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. As stated in a previous post, I am not certain that the lake of fire should be taken literally. However, I am certain that the separation from God will be both literal and eternal.

You have stated that each of the verses that you quote supports the others in a solid wall. When subjected to the trumpet of God's word your "solid wall" becomes a Jericho and sinks into obscurity.

Does annihilation mean that satan himself will cease to exist also? Lazarus was dead for four days, was he not? When Jesus raised him from the dead did He have to recreate his soul/spirit?

1Jn 5:12 clearly speaks of those still living and the life mentioned is eternal life in Christ. Those without that life will be separated from God forever as they die in their sin.

Heb 10:26,27. The word used for consume means to eat. What is eaten does not cease to exist.

ἐσθίω {es-thee'-o}

ἐσθίω strengthened for a primary edo (to eat); used only in certain tenses, the rest being supplied by φάγω; to eat (usually literal): devour, eat, live.

Used 56 times in the Bible.

Annihilation is easier to believe than eternal separation from God. Just as a matter of interest, do you believe in this two gospel Jews and Gentiles teaching? I only ask because your answer may have a bearing on our discussion.

Pete 👤
...
 

Timotheos

New member
To destroy (ἀπολέσαι) {ap-ol'-loo-mee} The word comes from the root ὄλεθρος {ol'-eth-ros} The class of words to which this belongs denotes "utter and hopeless ruin; but they convey no idea whether the ruined object ceases to exist or continues a worthless existence" Professor Marshall, in Expositor IV. 3:283, thinks Luke's variant, "to cast," indicates that our Lord originally used an Aramaic word that properly meant "to set on fire." Both soul and body in hell. The word is also translated as perish and is used four times in the NT

Biblically "death" carries the idea of separation such as in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. As stated in a previous post, I am not certain that the lake of fire should be taken literally. However, I am certain that the separation from God will be both literal and eternal.

You have stated that each of the verses that you quote supports the others in a solid wall. When subjected to the trumpet of God's word your "solid wall" becomes a Jericho and sinks into obscurity.

Does annihilation mean that satan himself will cease to exist also? Lazarus was dead for four days, was he not? When Jesus raised him from the dead did He have to recreate his soul/spirit?

1Jn 5:12 clearly speaks of those still living and the life mentioned is eternal life in Christ. Those without that life will be separated from God forever as they die in their sin.

Heb 10:26,27. The word used for consume means to eat. What is eaten does not cease to exist.

ἐσθίω {es-thee'-o}

ἐσθίω strengthened for a primary edo (to eat); used only in certain tenses, the rest being supplied by φάγω; to eat (usually literal): devour, eat, live.

Used 56 times in the Bible.

Annihilation is easier to believe than eternal separation from God. Just as a matter of interest, do you believe in this two gospel Jews and Gentiles teaching? I only ask because your answer may have a bearing on our discussion.

Pete ��
...

Your reply was as expected. I don't need to convince you of what the Bible says, I only need to tell you. That's done. Whenever you need to talk, I am available. Destruction IS easier to believe that eternal separation from God. That is because the BIBLE says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more, but the Bible NEVER says that the wicked will experience eternal separation from God. It is easier to believe the truth than it is to continually weave fixes for the problems inherent in your doctrine.

I don't understand your poorly worded question, "do you believe in this two gospel Jews and Gentiles teaching?" Could you phrase the question better?
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Oh my goodness, you have a 20" Dobsonian? �� ��I have loved astronomy since I was about 12yrs old and was an avid viewer of "The Sky At Night" for years. �� These days sadly I don't do much observing and anyway where I live the light pollution is just chronic! ��

Pete ��

That is why I travel into the country away from the shopping centre next door.

I have a caravan there.

Timotheos has a whole thread on this subject back a bit.

You might be insulted by us saying you make God look like a monster by teaching eternal conscious torment, but we know it is not your intention.

However that is the effect on many of the lost just the same, and is used by many as a reason to not want to come to know Him.

LA
 

Timotheos

New member
Timotheos has a whole thread on this subject back a bit.

LA
Yes, here it is:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89660

It is probably the understatement of the decade, but I have thought about this subject A LOT. I remain completely unconvinced by arguments that the wages of sin is not death but eternal conscious torment in hell instead of death. To put it bluntly, if the wages of sin is eternal life in hell being tortured alive, then Paul was either gravely mistaken or boldly lying when he wrote "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
 

revpete

New member
Yes, here it is:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89660

It is probably the understatement of the decade, but I have thought about this subject A LOT. I remain completely unconvinced by arguments that the wages of sin is not death but eternal conscious torment in hell instead of death. To put it bluntly, if the wages of sin is eternal life in hell being tortured alive, then Paul was either gravely mistaken or boldly lying when he wrote "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."


Thanks for the thread but I don't think we are going to come to any sort of compromise, so shall we agree to disagree? I don't believe anything will be accomplished by going over old ground. 🔨

Pete 👤
 

revpete

New member
Your reply was as expected. I don't need to convince you of what the Bible says, I only need to tell you. That's done. Whenever you need to talk, I am available. Destruction IS easier to believe that eternal separation from God. That is because the BIBLE says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more, but the Bible NEVER says that the wicked will experience eternal separation from God. It is easier to believe the truth than it is to continually weave fixes for the problems inherent in your doctrine.

I don't understand your poorly worded question, "do you believe in this two gospel Jews and Gentiles teaching?" Could you phrase the question better?


Yes sorry, I was talking about this Mid Acts stuff.

Pete 👤
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
I am kidding :) Just saying you don't seem to hold the "traditional orthodox historical Pharisee harlot church" beliefs, which is a good thing!

yeah, ur right. i like to get past all that and see the totality of The Word. the big picture. look forward to talking with you:thumb:
 

Timotheos

New member
Thanks for the thread but I don't think we are going to come to any sort of compromise, so shall we agree to disagree? I don't believe anything will be accomplished by going over old ground. 🔨

Pete 👤

Okay, may God bless you richly this week.
See you around.
 

Timotheos

New member
Ta, right back at ya! 👈

Pete 👤

Pete, now that some time has passed, have you considered that the wages of sin might really be death (as the Bible says) and not eternal conscious torment in hell (as the tradition says)?

Look over my previous post (Dec 17th, 4:27 PM) where I laid out the Biblical Evidence which you asked me for.
 

Word based mystic

New member
It was right there in post 4, didn't you see it?
I believe that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.
I believe that those who believe in Him will have eternal life and those who reject Him will perish just as the Bible says.
There are many many scriptures that plainly state that the end of the lost is destruction, or annihilation, if you prefer that term. Here they are, in short I believe that the lost perish rather than live forever in hell being tormented simply because I believe what the Bible says:


Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment. Notice that only the narrow gate leads to life, not both gates.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)​

I want you to see that all of these passages support the doctrine that the wicked are destroyed rather than kept alive in hell being tormented forever. These verses are not built one on top of the other, like dominoes, if you topple one verse they all fall down. Each of these verses supports the others in a solid wall. Each one of these verses taken alone should be enough to convince anyone that the penalty is death, destruction, perishing, etc.
One word from God is sufficient for you to believe. But this is not one verse, even though that would be enough. These are not isolated or obscure verses. These verses are not taken out of context, or manipulated to say the opposite of what they say. This is the Word of God, and I believe it. It is enough to say "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

i just found this thread and comment
i could have just re posted this on the other thread called eternal torment by (truster) and saved me a lot of time...

lol thanks for the hard work.
 

Timotheos

New member
i just found this thread and comment
i could have just re posted this on the other thread called eternal torment by (truster) and saved me a lot of time...

lol thanks for the hard work.

Thanks.

Most of that came from a study I did, just reading through the NT (and then later including the OT) looking for how the word "destruction" is used, attempting to determine what the Bible writers (and the Holy Spirit) mean when they write "for the wicked shall be destroyed". When I flipped through the pages of the NT, it was amazing how strongly this message comes through - Only those who are in Christ will receive eternal life, and those who are not in Christ will perish.
 

Word based mystic

New member
Thanks.

Most of that came from a study I did, just reading through the NT (and then later including the OT) looking for how the word "destruction" is used, attempting to determine what the Bible writers (and the Holy Spirit) mean when they write "for the wicked shall be destroyed". When I flipped through the pages of the NT, it was amazing how strongly this message comes through - Only those who are in Christ will receive eternal life, and those who are not in Christ will perish.

about 20 years ago i started questioning the doctrine because it conflicted with your scriptures and genesis 3:22. Which keeps Gods love and mercy together with justice. It also keeps the main theme of Gods fatherly love to his created affirmed. genesis 3:22 reinforces his desire that man not live eternally in such a state of misery and sin.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
I want you to see that all of these passages support the doctrine that the wicked are destroyed rather than kept alive in hell being tormented forever. These verses are not built one on top of the other, like dominoes, if you topple one verse they all fall down. Each of these verses supports the others in a solid wall. Each one of these verses taken alone should be enough to convince anyone that the penalty is death, destruction, perishing, etc.
One word from God is sufficient for you to believe. But this is not one verse, even though that would be enough. These are not isolated or obscure verses. These verses are not taken out of context, or manipulated to say the opposite of what they say. This is the Word of God, and I believe it. It is enough to say "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".
:think:
here is your one verse ,and down goes your wall. :carryon:

Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
 

Timotheos

New member
:think:
here is your one verse ,and down goes your wall. :carryon:

Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

No. The eternal punishment is destruction.

You didn't address ANY verse that I posted. None of them. Try again.

Here they are, think about what you are denying, the WORD OF GOD!
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment. Notice that only the narrow gate leads to life, not both gates.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)
I want you to see that all of these passages support the doctrine that the wicked are destroyed rather than kept alive in hell being tormented forever. These verses are not built one on top of the other, like dominoes, if you topple one verse they all fall down. Each of these verses supports the others in a solid wall. Each one of these verses taken alone should be enough to convince anyone that the penalty is death, destruction, perishing, etc.
One word from God is sufficient for you to believe. But this is not one verse, even though that would be enough. These are not isolated or obscure verses. These verses are not taken out of context, or manipulated to say the opposite of what they say. This is the Word of God, and I believe it. It is enough to say "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".​
 
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Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
No. The eternal punishment is destruction.

You didn't address ANY verse that I posted. None of them. Try again.

Here they are, think about what you are denying, the WORD OF GOD!
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment. Notice that only the narrow gate leads to life, not both gates.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)
I want you to see that all of these passages support the doctrine that the wicked are destroyed rather than kept alive in hell being tormented forever. These verses are not built one on top of the other, like dominoes, if you topple one verse they all fall down. Each of these verses supports the others in a solid wall. Each one of these verses taken alone should be enough to convince anyone that the penalty is death, destruction, perishing, etc.
One word from God is sufficient for you to believe. But this is not one verse, even though that would be enough. These are not isolated or obscure verses. These verses are not taken out of context, or manipulated to say the opposite of what they say. This is the Word of God, and I believe it. It is enough to say "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".​


Tim,

I think there is a mix up in Rev.ch 20 because punishment for the wicked exists for the entire time of the thousand years before their annihilation in the lake of fire. Isaiah 24:22.

I see it impossible that all these wicked who surround the camp of the saints would be produced during the thousand years.

.This is probably my only word on this.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
No. The eternal punishment is destruction.

Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Synonyms for punishment :sherlock:

retribution discipline forfeiture torture trial suffering abuse sanction beating penance forfeit

rod sequestration ostracism purgatory mortification unhappiness comeuppance victimization
castigation correction reparation

pain infliction confiscation mulct gallows maltreatment chastisement amercement
deprivation proof hard work

lumps chastening short shrift
slave labor disciplinary action
just desserts punitive measures
rough treatment

:think: no destruction

and down goes your wall .:carryon:
 

OCTOBER23

New member
There will be a Lake of Oil in Saudi Arabia that will be on fire

and used to burn Garbage and that is where Satan will probably be thrown.

The Bad Guys will be Working Hard throwing all the Garbage into the Fire.
 
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