ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

[Timotheos]

Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Synonyms for punishment :sherlock:

retribution discipline forfeiture torture trial suffering abuse sanction beating penance forfeit

rod sequestration ostracism purgatory mortification unhappiness comeuppance victimization
castigation correction reparation

pain infliction confiscation mulct gallows maltreatment chastisement amercement
deprivation proof hard work

lumps chastening short shrift
slave labor disciplinary action
just desserts punitive measures
rough treatment

:think: no destruction

and down goes your wall .:carryon:

Matthew 25:46 doesn't say what the eternal punishment is. Your claim is that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment in hell. Matthew 25:46 doesn't say this. Read what it DOES say. Eternal Punishment. :think: You aren't thinking. You are assuming that eternal punishment MUST mean eternal conscious torment. Destruction is also punishment. Destruction is certainly eternal. So destruction COULD be the eternal punishment. Matthew 25:46 doesn't say. So you need to deal with the Scriptures that DO SAY what the punishment is, AND I HAVE GIVEN THEM TO YOU TWICE AND YOU KEEP ON IGNORING THEM!!!

Deal with the Scriptures I have given you. Don't stubbornly think that you are are right when you aren't.

 

[way 2 go]

Matthew 25:46 doesn't say what the eternal punishment is.

Jesus already said what it was in previous verse
25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Your claim is that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment in hell.

its eternal and its punishment

btw Rev 20:14

Matthew 25:46 doesn't say this. Read what it DOES say. Eternal Punishment. :think: You aren't thinking.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

given that eternal life does not end then eternal punishment will not end.

You are assuming that eternal punishment MUST mean eternal conscious torment.

not assuming ECT it is ECT

Destruction is also punishment.

verse says
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment

eternal existence

Destruction is certainly eternal

eternal existence

So destruction COULD be the eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:46 doesn't say.

Jesus says what it is Mat 25:41

So you need to deal with the Scriptures that DO SAY what the punishment is, AND I HAVE GIVEN THEM TO YOU TWICE AND YOU KEEP ON IGNORING THEM!!!

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Deal with the Scriptures I have given you. Don't stubbornly think that you are are right when you aren't.

just accept your wall has fallen. :denver:

 

[Timotheos]

Jesus already said what it was in previous verse
25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

its eternal and its punishment

btw Rev 20:14

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

given that eternal life does not end then eternal punishment will not end.

not assuming ECT it is ECT

verse says
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment

eternal existence

eternal existence

Jesus says what it is Mat 25:41

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


just accept your wall has fallen. :denver:

You aren't reading what the Bible actually says.
Why can't you admit that Matthew 25:46 doesn't say that the punishment is eternal conscious torment?

BTW, Matthew 25:41 proves MY side, not yours. Whatever is put into the eternal fire is burnt up by the fire.

ALSO, you haven't addressed ANY of the Scriptures that I posted that SPECIFICALLY STATE that the wicked will perish, be destroyed, and will be no more. Deal with the scriptures. Do I need to post them for you AGAIN?

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus described what the punishment is. The rich man who was tormented in flames was NOT annihilated. Neither could he find any water. He longed for even a single drop. Neither could he escape the flames which were tormenting him. If what Jesus described were symbolic: what did the 'symbols' mean? It only means one thing: torment is eternal and conscious. Imagining that God would wake all the dead to judge them so that He would then put them to death again is foolish. Scripture says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die. After that comes judgment. They don't die a second time, since the 'second death' is being cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone which is eternal conscious torment.

 

[chrysostom]

What d'ya think?

Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

neither

it is the second death

very easy to understand

 

[revpete]

You are obviously a learned scholar . Sorry but c'mon which? Except of course unless you are a cessationist.

Pete

 

[revpete]

I've looked into the MAD stuff here on TOL a little bit and it smells like skubalon.

Sorry but what is skubalon?

Pete

 

[revpete]

I've looked into the MAD stuff here on TOL a little bit and it smells like skubalon.

Sorry but what is skubalon?

Pete

 

[Timotheos]

Sorry but what is skubalon?

Pete

Dung, Phillipians 3:8

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung (σκύβαλα), that I may win Christ,

skubalon: refuse
Original Word: σκύβαλον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: skubalon
Phonetic Spelling: (skoo'-bal-on)
Short Definition: refuse, dregs
Definition: refuse, dregs, dung.

 

[way 2 go]

Jesus described what the punishment is. The rich man who was tormented in flames was NOT annihilated. Neither could he find any water. He longed for even a single drop. Neither could he escape the flames which were tormenting him. If what Jesus described were symbolic: what did the 'symbols' mean? It only means one thing: torment is eternal and conscious. Imagining that God would wake all the dead to judge them so that He would then put them to death again is foolish. Scripture says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die. After that comes judgment. They don't die a second time, since the 'second death' is being cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone which is eternal conscious torment.

so simple a child could understand it :up:

 

[Aimiel]

Professing themselves to be wise they became fools.

 

[way 2 go]

You aren't reading what the Bible actually says.
Why can't you admit that Matthew 25:46 doesn't say that the punishment is eternal conscious torment?

its eternal
and its punishment
the wicked have no rest so eternal conscious torment

BTW, Matthew 25:41 proves MY side, not yours. Whatever is put into the eternal fire is burnt up by the fire.

:nono:
not a consuming fire like fire is here on earth

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[way 2 go]

Professing themselves to be wise they became fools.

their position is :dizzy:

Mar 14:21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

their version:
For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but whatever to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
it would have been no different for that man had he existed
or never existed because
in the end he will cease to exist .

kinda makes judgement day pointless

 

[Arthur Brain]

its eternal
and its punishment
the wicked have no rest so eternal conscious torment


:nono:
not a consuming fire like fire is here on earth

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

So what kind of fire then? A one that doesn't consume and actually allows those within to utter coherent sentences? Why would a man request the above when a waterfall or fire extinguisher would make the more sense?

How cold does one have to be to try and justify agonised torment for other people - and unendingly at that?

:sigh:

 

[Timotheos]

their position is :dizzy:

Mar 14:21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

their version:
For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but whatever to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
it would have been no different for that man had he existed
or never existed because
in the end he will cease to exist .

kinda makes judgement day pointless

At Judgment Day Jesus decides who will receive eternal life and who will be destroyed. It doesn't seem "pointless" to me.

Perhaps you simply misunderstand?

 

[Aimiel]

their position is :dizzy:

Mar 14:21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

their version:
For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but whatever to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!
it would have been no different for that man had he existed
or never existed because
in the end he will cease to exist .

kinda makes judgement day pointless

Logical understanding of The Holy Scriptures dictate that their position is impossible. :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

So simple it cannot be explained away...

Jesus described what the punishment is. The rich man who was tormented in flames was NOT annihilated. Neither could he find any water. He longed for even a single drop. Neither could he escape the flames which were tormenting him. If what Jesus described were symbolic: what did the 'symbols' mean? It only means one thing: torment is eternal and conscious. Imagining that God would wake all the dead to judge them so that He would then put them to death again is foolish. Scripture says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die. After that comes judgment. They don't die a second time, since the 'second death' is being cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone which is eternal conscious torment.

 

[Timotheos]

Logical understanding of The Holy Scriptures dictate that their position is impossible. :thumb:

According to the Holy Scriptures, the wages of sin is death.

Logical understanding of the Holy Scriptures reveals that the wages of sin is death. Not everlasting torture.

 

[Truster]

What d'ya think?

Hades is the lock up where the wicked are held until they are judged unto condemnation, but they will first bow the knee and every tongue will confess that Yah Shua is Adonay. Then will Hades and death be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Aimiel]

According to the Holy Scriptures, the wages of sin is death.

Logical understanding of the Holy Scriptures reveals that the wages of sin is death. Not everlasting torture.

Logic dictates that we don't dissect Scripture to create doctrine. Death is the wages of sin but after that there is judgment.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Why should there be judgment if death were all there is to it? There would only be death. The judgment of eternal damnation is there in Scripture and ignoring it won't make it go away.