Is Faith Without Works Dead?

[Lon]

Only if they are a liar and evil or stupid. James and Paul state the opposite things. Paul stated the opposite of what the Lord Jesus Christ said to Israel in his earthly ministry.

I don't think purposefully, lying, stupid, or evil. It is more that we have bibles where everything is mixed, trying to make sense of 'all of it' as the Word of God. Patience, love, and explanation go a long way. TOL is not known for coddling but I think it the best tack: 2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Dr. Joe Aldrich (Multnomah Bible College): "People don't care what you know, until they know you care."
John 8:31-32 31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

I'm not sure how much of a Mid Acts theologian I am, but I find I agree more often than not. I'm never been Acts 2 dispensationalist either. I looked toward Calvinism for a long time because my favorite professors and theologians are Calvinists. I love Spurgeon, J.I. Packer Steven Charnel, and others even today. Their passion for the love of God is commendable and their writings are about their love for the Savior, regardless of theological difference in 'what is the same.' There is beauty in child-like faith: It loves God no matter what because He is good, loving, just, right, and first loved us.

I think TOL often conflates by in-body fighting. While any one of us is 'wrong' these too shall pass. We can disagree, it is the love for the body that I contend on TOL and other places. Though often heavy-handed, I have changed in theology by persistent caring correction on TOL. It is a good place to hammer out theology but I believe we can work on our collective delivery and do much better. In Christ -Lon

 

[Clete]

Only if they are a liar and evil or stupid. James and Paul state the opposite things. Paul stated the opposite of what the Lord Jesus Christ said to Israel in his earthly ministry.

Those videos are pretty amazing!

I wonder how any covenant theologian or anyone at all who wasn't a Mid-Acts dispensationalists would answer the points they make?

I've asked people for years to explain to me why would there have been any need for a thirteenth Apostle and no one has offered a satisfactory answer. Most don't ever answer at all. As effective as that has been, I think I might follow your lead and add the points those videos make to my pallet of arguments and see how it goes.

 

[Derf]

I can go on and on and on about obeying the letter of the law as a requirement. Works is not evidence of belief and trust (faith), it is evidence of allegiance to your duty (also faith).

I guess it's hard to argue with that, if works are both not evidence and evidence of faith.

 

[Idolater]

Of course you know that Jesus was fully man and fully God.

God, who is Spirit, has no beginning hence no mother.

The man, Jesus Christ, did have a mother. A human mother.

The term itself is a lie, and needs to be called out. There, got to the bottom of that one.

There are no parts of Jesus. And mothers aren't creators. Mothers are bearers, not creators. So Mary the Blessed Virgin our Lady did not create our Lord—she bore Him. That makes her the mother of God.

The Assyrian Orthodox branch of our faith also are Nestorians, but there're not very many parishes.

 

[Nick M]

we have bibles where everything is mixed

True. And the risen Lord Jesus Christ said to divide the gospel. That means you don't harmonize it. He said it through his spokesmen Paul.

 

[Nick M]

I think this exactly right and succinct. We confuse the two because for a Jew, it was a sign 'he/she was a Jew' in God's favor. I'd think a Grace Bible would be a thoughtful help: O.T. "To Jews" NT "To Jews" NT "To Gentiles" Then in side notes: "To Jews with gentile principles for gentiles living/relationship with God" etc.

Or you do what Les Feldick said, study the Old Testament first. In the newer videos I have seen from Paul Felter, he mentions the same thing. His whole series crushes the replacement theologians. Which are both "Pentecostals" and "Roman Catholics".

 

[Nick M]

I've asked people for years to explain to me why would there have been any need for a thirteenth Apostle and no one has offered a satisfactory answer.

Idolater said Paul is one of Peter's bishops and he is supposed to be correcting the Pope who can make mistakes. Until you ask if the Pope is really the Vicar of Christ. It is quite the contradiction they create for themselves.

 

[Nick M]

I guess it's hard to argue with that, if works are both not evidence and evidence of faith.

The word faith has more than one meaning from it's original roots, and they are literally opposites. Which is where the KJV is correct in that we are saved by the faith of Christ.

Belief and trust
Allegiance to a duty

And of course in English we have to use the same word. The only thing worse is the word love.

 

[Nick M]

Idolater said Paul is one of Peter's bishops and he is supposed to be correcting the Pope who can make mistakes. Until you ask if the Pope is really the Vicar of Christ. It is quite the contradiction they create for themselves.

The papacy is a distinct office from all the rest of the bishops. He's not just "first among equals", his office is distinct. The idea that his office is just another patriarchate is partisan (the party in question being namely, Eastern Orthodoxy).

It is why bishops all through history [have] always recognized their right to challenge the pope to his face, it is this very passage. As with the Jerusalem Council, the Church has used what the Scripture says to guide her path.

Hold on. So because there's a bad pope, therefore the office of pope is outside of Scripture? How does that work? And I suppose if there's a bad bishop, therefore the office of a bishop 1st Timothy 3:1 doesn't exist either? This is undermining the ministerial hierarchy that Christ and His Apostles all set in motion. The Chair or St. Peter is the throne of David and the seat of Moses in this dispensation (the New and Eternal Covenant). The pope keeps it warm for Jesus for when He returns. He's the King's vicar, the pope's not the king, but he is like Isaiah 22:22, he wields the keys to the kingdom (the throne of David) and the power to bind and loose (the seat of Moses, iow the priesthood). And the papacy's on wheels, there was like a century where the popes lived in France, not Italy, so it can move, iow, to Jerusalem. For some reason.

He has more moves than a break dancer. And Peter would tell you that you have committed blasphemy by saying he sits on David's throne.

 

[Nick M]

In the everlasting covenant of circumcision, yes. Faith without works is dead. In the dispensation of grace given to Paul for us, no, it is not dead. In fact, works are now counted as debt.

4 Now to him who works, wages are not given as a gift, but as a debt. 5 But to him who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

And I only repeated what Paul said about how James is referencing Abraham while in circumcision, and Paul when not. Paul stated this, which is why I state in the debate.

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? We are saying that faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it credited? When he was in circumcision? Or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Paul explicitly tells you this.

 

[Derf]

In the everlasting covenant of circumcision, yes. Faith without works is dead. In the dispensation of grace given to Paul for us, no, it is not dead. In fact, works are now counted as debt.

4 Now to him who works, wages are not given as a gift, but as a debt. 5 But to him who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

And I only repeated what Paul said about how James is referencing Abraham while in circumcision, and Paul when not. Paul stated this, which is why I state in the debate.

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? We are saying that faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it credited? When he was in circumcision? Or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Paul explicitly tells you this.

Was Abraham's faith belief or allegiance to a duty in each case (Paul vs James)?

The word faith has more than one meaning from it's original roots, and they are literally opposites. Which is where the KJV is correct in that we are saved by the faith of Christ.

Belief and trust
Allegiance to a duty

These are good distinctions, but allegiance to duty we usually call "faithfulness". We are saved by Christ's "faithfulness", because He was faithful to His mission to die for the sins of the world. However, He exercised "faith" (belief) in the Father in that He would be resurrected, and thus His faith fueled His faithfulness.

And of course in English we have to use the same word.

Not exactly, as above

The only thing worse is the word love.

Maybe "is", if you're a president.

 

[Lon]

Was Abraham's faith belief or allegiance to a duty in each case (Paul vs James)?



These are good distinctions, but allegiance to duty we usually call "faithfulness". We are saved by Christ's "faithfulness", because He was faithful to His mission to die for the sins of the world. However, He exercised "faith" (belief) in the Father in that He would be resurrected, and thus His faith fueled His faithfulness.

All three were involved in His resurrection.

 

[Nick M]

but allegiance to duty we usually call "faithfulness"

It isn't the rendering in the Bible. And your post is pretty much a red herring.

 

[Clete]

Idolater said Paul is one of Peter's bishops and he is supposed to be correcting the Pope who can make mistakes. Until you ask if the Pope is really the Vicar of Christ. It is quite the contradiction they create for themselves.

Well, that's the first time I've ever heard that! I can't imagine being part of something that just so flagrantly makes stuff up out of whole clothe like that. Their defense for it can't be any more substantive than "because I said so". How are they any different than Scientology or Branch Davidians?

 

[Clete]

The word faith has more than one meaning from it's original roots, and they are literally opposites. Which is where the KJV is correct in that we are saved by the faith of Christ.

Belief and trust
Allegiance to a duty

And of course in English we have to use the same word. The only thing worse is the word love.

In English, the word "faith" can mean different things, including both "belief and trust" and "allegiance to duty". As in any language, the context determines the meaning and I know of now examples where the meaning of "faith" is unclear.

On the subject of being saved by the faith of Christ, the issue there isn't with any form of the word "pistis"...

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (KJV)​

This is one of the few times when the NKJV fails to get it right. It does indeed say "faith OF Christ". The relevant Greek phrase is πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (pisteōs Iēsou Christou). This is a genitive construction and while there is more than one way this passage has been interpreted, the phrase naturally lends itself to a subjective genitive interpretation, which means "faithfulness OF Jesus Christ." If Paul had intended to emphasize "faith IN Christ" which would be the objective genitive, he could have used the preposition εἰς (eis, "into") or ἐν (en, "in"), which he does elsewhere (e.g., Galatians 3:26: "faith in Christ Jesus").

The point there being that "of" vs. "in" isn't about the Greek word for faith but about the absence of the Greek word for "in".

In actual fact the distinction between the various forms of the Greek word for faith isn't about the words meaning but rather about grammar. πίστις (pistis) is the nominative form of the noun, used when the word is the subject of a sentence or a direct object. It’s the form that typically carries the basic meaning of "faith," "belief," or "trust."

​

Example: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for" (Hebrews 11:1). Here, πίστις is the subject.​

πίστεως (pisteōs) is the genitive form of πίστις, often used to express possession, origin, or relationship. When you see πίστεως, it typically emphasizes something that is associated with or belongs to faith, such as "the faith of Christ" or "the faithfulness of God."

Example: "The faith of Christ" (πίστεως Χριστοῦ) in Galatians 2:16, where πίστεως expresses the relationship of faith to Christ (i.e. His faithfulness).​

In short, whether the Greek is pistis or pisteos it can be talking about either "belief and trust" or "allegiance to duty". Which it is, isn't determined by which of those two words are used but by the context.



By the way, I am NOT a Greek scholar! I just look this stuff up online and present the argument.

 

[Lon]

By the way, I am NOT a Greek scholar! I just look this stuff up online and present the argument.

I can read Greek, but am not able to recognize all Greek intimations: επιστευσαμε (E-sword has a free download that helps quite a bit with my Greek called "Greek NT Int-erlinear" The Greek word επιστευσαμε is Aorist (completed) Active Indicative (great free online lessons with quizzes) First person Plural. Greek does with it's entomology similar to how we do in English: I was (aorist) running (active (not past tense) indicative (fact) thus active indicative of what I was 'doing.' If it was all over I'd say "I ran." Because faith is plural, 'we' would be the correct sense of the Greek translation. In Him

 

[Clete]

I can read Greek, but am not able to recognize all Greek intimations: επιστευσαμε (E-sword has a free download that helps quite a bit with my Greek called "Greek NT Int-erlinear" The Greek word επιστευσαμε is Aorist (completed) Active Indicative (great free online lessons with quizzes) First person Plural. Greek does with it's entomology similar to how we do in English: I was (aorist) running (active (not past tense) indicative (fact) thus active indicative of what I was 'doing.' If it was all over I'd say "I ran." Because faith is plural, 'we' would be the correct sense of the Greek translation. In Him

If you say so.

 

[Nick M]

By the way, I am NOT a Greek scholar! I just look this stuff up online and present the argument.

Paul said to study....

I found several different sources, all from one video I will share, and explain why the tangent is in play.

Any body that can read ancient Hebrew or Greek. Conveniently, the Dead Sea Scrolls are not different than what we have today. Are you aware?

First a short video. He is speaking of the departure of the church, commonly called the rapture. This comes down to translation errors. Even in the KJV, which is part of why I am not "KJB only". Others that read those old languages often use it and say it is a really good version. But it still has translation errors.

Click this link. It is the verse in question by someone promoting the Latin Vulgate.

Here is what they claim the Latin states.



I think the person who made the website has an agenda, or he hired the wrong person to translate. It does not say "rebellion" or "falling away", or "revolt" as stated there. Dr Felter in the video is correct. Here is the literal translation by a service that doesn't know there is a discussion. My point is, even the KJV has translation errors. And so does the NKJV, in critical spots.

View attachment 13144

The point being translators can get it wrong and not be trying to deceive. Also, I think some are trying to deceive. Meaning whomever put up the Latin Vulgate online. As it now says "revolt". The neutral party translator says departure.

And Paul says "faith of Christ" more than once in the KJV. And the KJV gets "the rapture" wrong. For the record.

 

[Clete]

Paul said to study....

I found several different sources, all from one video I will share, and explain why the tangent is in play.



The point being translators can get it wrong and not be trying to deceive. Also, I think they are trying to deceive. Meaning whomever put up the Latin Vulgate online. As it now says "revolt". The neutral party translator says departure.

And Paul says "faith of Christ" more than once in the KJV. And the KJV gets "the rapture" wrong. For the record. Back to Galatians.

I just had the following conversation with Chat GPT.....

I said: Without referencing any existing English translation of the bible and going strictly by the Greek itself, translate I Thessalonians 4:15-18 into English.

ChatGPT said:​

Here is a direct translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 from the Greek text into English, focusing on the structure and meaning of the original language:

Verse 15
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep."

Verse 16
"For the Lord Himself, with a commanding shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

Verse 17
"Then we who are living, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we will always be with the Lord."

Verse 18
"Therefore, comfort one another with these words."

This translation reflects the grammatical and syntactical features of the Greek text without relying on any existing English Bible translations.

I said: How it is possible that you're so close to the NKJV? Did you cheat?

ChatGPT said:​

No, I didn’t cheat! The similarity comes from the fact that the NKJV's translators made careful efforts to stay close to the original Greek texts while still producing readable English. The Greek in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 is relatively straightforward, and many of the phrases used in the direct translation align with how they would naturally be expressed in both Greek and English, especially in biblical contexts.

So, the resemblance is more of a result of common translation choices for familiar phrases, like "the Lord Himself," "the dead in Christ," and "caught up together," which are commonly translated similarly across many versions of the Bible.

I said: Did you reference any of those versions to make your translation?

ChatGPT said:​

No, I did not reference any specific Bible versions to make the translation. The translation was done solely based on the Greek text itself, considering the structure and meaning of the words in the original language. The similarities with the NKJV or other translations are coincidental, as they are likely using the same Greek source and translating common Greek phrases in similar ways.
I focused on conveying the Greek meaning directly into English without consulting any particular translation.

 

[Lon]

I just had the following conversation with Chat GPT.....

I said: Without referencing any existing English translation of the bible and going strictly by the Greek itself, translate I Thessalonians 4:15-18 into English.

ChatGPT said:​

Here is a direct translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 from the Greek text into English, focusing on the structure and meaning of the original language:

Verse 15
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep."

Verse 16
"For the Lord Himself, with a commanding shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

Verse 17
"Then we who are living, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we will always be with the Lord."

Verse 18
"Therefore, comfort one another with these words."

This translation reflects the grammatical and syntactical features of the Greek text without relying on any existing English Bible translations.

I said: How it is possible that you're so close to the NKJV? Did you cheat?

ChatGPT said:​

No, I didn’t cheat! The similarity comes from the fact that the NKJV's translators made careful efforts to stay close to the original Greek texts while still producing readable English. The Greek in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 is relatively straightforward, and many of the phrases used in the direct translation align with how they would naturally be expressed in both Greek and English, especially in biblical contexts.

So, the resemblance is more of a result of common translation choices for familiar phrases, like "the Lord Himself," "the dead in Christ," and "caught up together," which are commonly translated similarly across many versions of the Bible.

I said: Did you reference any of those versions to make your translation?

ChatGPT said:​

No, I did not reference any specific Bible versions to make the translation. The translation was done solely based on the Greek text itself, considering the structure and meaning of the words in the original language. The similarities with the NKJV or other translations are coincidental, as they are likely using the same Greek source and translating common Greek phrases in similar ways.
I focused on conveying the Greek meaning directly into English without consulting any particular translation.

Wow! Check this out Clete!