You are retarded or evil. Good bye. I am done with this trash where it doesn't matter to you what God said in his Bible. Just like the Jews that Jesus rebuked for rejecting scripture for their tradition. You are shameful.
Is Faith Without Works Dead?
- Thread starter Right Divider
- Start date
Derf
Well-known member
In other words: "You've presented arguments that make sense and are well-supported that are in conflict with my theology, so I will leave this conversation."
Lon
Well-known member
Not what he is saying. He is saying impasse. His theology is that James and Paul are not the same. Glory has said that she used to be Mid Acts. I'd reckon the blending of James' message and Paul's is at odds. For me, it is clear that Paul and James would argue. Perhaps another has the need to say "All is the Word of God" in scripture hence "Lordship Salvation" works in salvation etc. Why? Because James says faith without works is dead. For me, I have to at least entertain a viability between Paul and James: James was talking to Jews. Paul to gentiles. What does it mean? It means Jews still had to keep the Law. I don't know if they still do today. Thus, though there is no longer Greek or Jew, there is a difference in their Faith (not salvation I'd reckon).
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion, greeting
Jas 2:14 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Compare with the Apostle Paul:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
For the gentile, God ordained (prepared) for us to do as the Spirit guides.
It'd seem we as gentiles have more to our grace. God does even this work for us, but it seems evident that Jews had to toe the line, likely because they were entrusted with it and all their promises weren't just spiritual. IOW, there is a conflation of necessity Jews have (or at least had) to them keeping the Law.
Is anything applicable to a gentile in James?
One consideration:
Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will cure the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. And if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess faults to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous one avails much.
I believe this applicable to all of us. We heal by bringing all our cares before the Lord. Thus, as we read James, we see what must be different and also appreciate what can or does apply across board. For your (pl) inspection. -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Explain, was this to Nick? If to me: I tried to explain the 'Mid Acts' position as I understand it (again, confusion for clearing up, I'm puzzled, potentially hurting with/for you, especially if to me). -Lon
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Right Divider
Body part
No, she ignored the scripture and did not move from her position. The devil mixes lies with truth. I know she isn't retarded. So she received my rebuke.
Lon
Well-known member
Did I do fairly well explaining the Mid Acts position?
And James and Peter have an understanding with Paul. Acts 15 bears this out. The Lord Jesus Christ started another church. They accept it, a bunch of you do not. The reason to divide it is simple. In circumcision, you are bound to it and good works and the law of Moses. We are not to keep it. Now for the scripture. Here is James.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
Our good friend who I see is not here, Sozo, said "James is wrong" because Dave is honest in what he sees. James is not wrong. He is not talking to us. He just said what we see in the gospels.
Here is Paul
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Paul also received his ministry from Jesus directly. But we know the Holy Spirit guided him, just like all the others in his words. It is not a coincidence to have the same verbiage.
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Yet James continues.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
No, that is a rhetorical question. Putting your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ will not save you. According to Jesus in the red letters, and James right here.
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Only a liar or dumb man says they are saying the same thing. It is critical to divide the gospel, do not try to harmonize it.
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith of Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
Our good friend who I see is not here, Sozo, said "James is wrong" because Dave is honest in what he sees. James is not wrong. He is not talking to us. He just said what we see in the gospels.
Here is Paul
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Paul also received his ministry from Jesus directly. But we know the Holy Spirit guided him, just like all the others in his words. It is not a coincidence to have the same verbiage.
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Yet James continues.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
No, that is a rhetorical question. Putting your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ will not save you. According to Jesus in the red letters, and James right here.
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Only a liar or dumb man says they are saying the same thing. It is critical to divide the gospel, do not try to harmonize it.
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith of Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
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I think I saw Les Feldick in syndication on a cable show while not studying scripture. And he said you don't understand the New Testament because you didn't read the Old Testament. Actually, then, I didn't study either one of them.
Exodus 19: 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.
Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love (serve) the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
Leviticus 18:4 You shall observe My judgments and keep My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
Back to The Chosen and what they get wrong.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
The problem with the Pharisee isn't the law, it is their tradition and disregard for the law. Their covenant is everlasting. They get a new one, and the old one does not go away. That is what everlasting means.
Exodus 19: 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.
Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love (serve) the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
Leviticus 18:4 You shall observe My judgments and keep My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
Back to The Chosen and what they get wrong.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
The problem with the Pharisee isn't the law, it is their tradition and disregard for the law. Their covenant is everlasting. They get a new one, and the old one does not go away. That is what everlasting means.
Right Divider
Body part
Somewhat...
The Mid-Acts position is simply the fact that God deals with different people at different times in different ways.
Paul claims to be OUR pattern and yet there are some here that claim that Noah or Abraham are our "pattern". They tend to be what I call "dictionary theologians", that find a word in the Bible and force it into their "view".