Is eternal suffering literal?

[Bladerunner]

Gen 2 says a soul is made up of an inanimate body animated by a breath from God. If either part is missing, or not functioning, the person is dead. Thus, a soul without a body is, well, nothing.

Yes. Him--not just His body.

You've given the right scripture. Please show me where it says "His body was buried", or "His body was raised on the third day." If *He* was somewhere else, then *He* wasn't buried. If *He* was still alive, then *He* wasn't resurrected. You can't resurrect a live thing, only a dead thing that was once alive. And the bible never treats His body as a separate thing from Him. If it did, then it would have to say "His body was buried," or "His soul went to Abraham's bosom." But a body without a spirit is dead, and so is a human spirit without a body, I think. In other wirds, you need both a body (made from earthly materials) and a breath from God to make a living human ("soul" in Gen 2).

rem this....GOD makes all of us...not just Adam and EVE>....We are nothing but the clay in the hands of a potter.

 

[Derf]

rem this....GOD makes all of us...not just Adam and EVE>....We are nothing but the clay in the hands of a potter.

Sure. Can you tell me why you think that's pertinent?

 

[Keiw1]

Your cult has deceived you.
You've listened to nothing that I've said.
Welcome to my ignore list.

You won't believe an inspired bible writer over errors. Is Paul wrong?= No, the errors in trinity translations that contradict Gods truth are wrong.

 

[Derf]

My reply: I base his omnipresence on these things:
1. Theologians much smarter than me have said he is.

2. References in scripture. One search I just did said that there are100s of passages which speak of the ways he is all and in all.
One author suggested his top ten: My favorites among them were Jeremiah 23:24; Psalm 139:7-10; Proverbs15:3; Isaiah 57:15.

3. However I also based my conclusion on a personal study of Genesis 1 and some other clues. In Gen 1 I first realized God is an invisible Spirit but he is able to establish places and things within himself. These would ultimately be manifested and put to use.

One might compare this creative process to how an architect would mentally think of a plan for a shopping mall and then draw out the plans and provide the supplies and build it ... EXCEPT for God this is the truth: God's spiritual essence is life, power, intellect and so forth; so, God can create things within himself and give measures of life to what ever living beings he wishes to manifest. Thus, I believe male and female mentioned in Genesis 1 were living within the invisible spiritual essence God as two unique spiritual beings in the beginning ... but they were body-less. Architects can't give life to what they create!

Then in Gen. 1:6 ... I noticed God was creating realms or places where things, like the sun, moon, stars etc, would exist. Next I noticed the dwelling place of earth... and upon it there were specific places where things could dwell, the birds of the air, the sea and all that was in it... etc. Much later in the NT I learned about other places established within God called - Abraham's bosom, the Pit, Hell, a place in the light versus the place in the darkness for lost souls, and the Lake of Fire. The essence of God is in all those places for he created them and they dwell within him. And remember he even knows the number of hairs on our heads and I've figured he knows how many are on the ground. And let's not forget he sees us forming in the womb and he sees into our hearts and know our spiritual intentions. How much more everywhere can he be?

Isaiah 43:11 tells us the promised one will only be: God, LORD, and Savior. I think Col 1:16-17 is a great verse for adding a nuance to what God's relationship is to creation. It is talking about Jesus, but we know Jesus was God, LORD, and Savior finally manifested upon the earth in flesh doing what God told him to do and say. Verse 17 explains he, being God/Emmanuel, was before all things and by him all things consist.
Now if by him all things consist - notice it is talking about what things consist of NOT about what caused their existence... therefore, God's essence must be some part of the essence of all things that exist whether they be thrones powers, principalities, etc.

Now, what does what I have written have to do with all things being in the Spirit of God? You know Jesus our risen Lord is something like a dwelling place... for we believers will dwell in him safely because he is in us. We will be one with our Lord. What do I mean? In Genesis 1 God said let there be LIGHT. John 1 tells us THAT LIGHT had come into the world and he was called Jesus. Other scripture reveals we believers shall well in the LIGHT versus being cast into outer darkness. These are places/realms within God. Believers are no longer programmed to dwell in outer darkness but with our Lord in the LIGHT. See how God separates things and places things ... but it all exists within Him.

Well, I rambled in this part of my answer, but there are just so many bits of clues that for me do support HIS omnipresence.

Is God in here? Everybody else has to get a permit (read the sign).

 

[JudgeRightly]

You won't believe an inspired bible writer over errors. Is Paul wrong?= No, the errors in trinity translations that contradict Gods truth are wrong.

Begging the question.

Why is your translation right and ours wrong?

 

[Bladerunner]

Sure. Can you tell me why you think that's pertinent?

Because there is nothing on this earth that God does not have a hand in. After all, it is His creation and His two plans of salvation. In Isa 64:8.."But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."

 

[Derf]

Because there is nothing on this earth that God does not have a hand in. After all, it is His creation and His two plans of salvation. In Isa 64:8.."But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."

But what does that have do with what I wrote?

 

[Bladerunner]

rem this....GOD makes all of us...not just Adam and EVE>....We are nothing but the clay in the hands of a potter.

Your soul is all of you...Your body is simply the container that contains your soul.

 

[Derf]

Your soul is all of you...Your body is simply the container that contains your soul.

Then my body, being part of me, is part of my soul, since you say my soul is ALL of me. Yes, I agree with you.

 

[Bladerunner]

Then my body, being part of me, is part of my soul, since you say my soul is ALL of me. Yes, I agree with you.

No, you body is a container only separate from your soul. The Body will go to a grave and the soul will go to one of two places...Paradise (with GOD) or Hell (Hades, away from GOD)

 

[Derf]

So you're retracting your previous statement?

 

[Bladerunner]

So you're retracting your previous statement?

no, I believe I simply repeated my previous statement, the Body is simply a container of the person, the soul.

 

[Derf]

no, I believe I simply repeated my previous statement, the Body is simply a container of the person, the soul.

Then you're retracting this part:

Your soul is all of you..

Added: In case you didn't understand, if the body is part of you, then it can't also be not a part of you. If the soul is all of you, and the body us part of you, then the soul doesn't exist without the body.

Genesis supports this when it says the body with the breath of life became the living soul. And the resurrection of Jesus supports it because His body, the same one that died, was resurrected and will be part of Him for eternity. Without this part of us resurrected, according to Paul, our faith is vain (meaning our faith is of no use to us). How can that be true, if the body is merely a container that we cast off when we don't need it any longer?

 

[Derf]

Then you're retracting this part:

Added: In case you didn't understand, if the body is part of you, then it can't also be not a part of you. If the soul is all of you, and the body us part of you, then the soul doesn't exist without the body.

Genesis supports this when it says the body with the breath of life became the living soul. And the resurrection of Jesus supports it because His body, the same one that died, was resurrected and will be part of Him for eternity. Without this part of us resurrected, according to Paul, our faith is vain (meaning our faith is of no use to us). How can that be true, if the body is merely a container that we cast off when we don't need it any longer?

One more thing @Bladerunner. This from Job explains that we can't do a bunch of things once our body stops functioning:
Job 27:3-6 KJV — All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit. God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me. My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Job 27 :: King James Version (KJV)

Job 27 - All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;

blb.org

Notice that a man is alive while he breathes, after which he is not, but has begun returning to dust, because God's spirit is no longer in the body (not man's spirit, but God's). Job doesn't say, "I'll be doing all the important things after I'm no longer encumbered with this unwieldy container."

 

[Bladerunner]

Then you're retracting this part:

Added: In case you didn't understand, if the body is part of you, then it can't also be not a part of you. If the soul is all of you, and the body us part of you, then the soul doesn't exist without the body.

Genesis supports this when it says the body with the breath of life became the living soul. And the resurrection of Jesus supports it because His body, the same one that died, was resurrected and will be part of Him for eternity. Without this part of us resurrected, according to Paul, our faith is vain (meaning our faith is of no use to us). How can that be true, if the body is merely a container that we cast off when we don't need it any longer?

what part of a container for the soul do you not understand. The container, the body is mortal and dies...The soul is immortal and lives forever. IIt is the Breathe of God.

 

[Derf]

what part of a container for the soul do you not understand. The container, the body is mortal and dies...The soul is immortal and lives forever. IIt is the Breathe of God.

The body dies, and is then resurrected. It must be an essential part of a man, or there would be no need to resurrect it. Jesus was resurrected in the same body He died in, and He will never die again, which means He's stuck with that body for all eternity. That's the picture of our resurrection--our bodies will be resurrected for us to use for all eternity. They will be somewhat different, like a grain of wheat that is planted brings forth more than a grain of wheat, but still comprised of "wheatness".

1 Corinthians 15:35-42 KJV — But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15 :: King James Version (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15 - But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

blb.org

 

[Bladerunner]

The body dies, and is then resurrected. It must be an essential part of a man, or the r would be no need to resurrection it. Jesus was resurrected in the same body He died in, and He will never die again, which means He's stuck with that body for all eternity. That's the picture of our resurrection--our bodies will be resurrected for us to use for all eternity. They will be somewhat different, like a grain of wheat that is planted brings forth more than a grain of wheat, but still comprised of "wheatness".

1 Corinthians 15:35-42 KJV — But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15 :: King James Version (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15 - But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

blb.org

Jesus was resurrected with a new transfigured body. It was not the same body He had before He was crucified. The body He has now is also immortal. there is a big difference...for the body that is resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgement will be completely destroyed when it is thrown into the lake of fire...The Soul will remain alive as it is immortal and in torment for ever and ever.

 

[Derf]

Jesus was resurrected with a new transfigured body. It was not the same body He had before He was crucified.

You'd have me believe that a brand new body had scars on it? That's odd.

The body He has now is also immortal.

Agreed.

there is a big difference...for the body that is resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgement will be completely destroyed when it is thrown into the lake of fire...

Why? Why take the trouble to resurrect a body just to destroy it? Remember that many of these bodies have long since turned to dust. Why resurrect such a thing, reconstituting it for a judgment photo opportunities before redestroying it? Does that make any sense to you?

The Soul will remain alive as it is immortal and in torment for ever and ever.

I thought that Jesus said God is capable of destroying both body and soul in hell. If destroying the body in hell makes it disappear forever, why doesn't destroying the soul in he'll make it disappear forever?

 

[Bladerunner]

You'd have me believe that a brand new body had scars on it? That's odd.

Rem, He is GOD...we see in throne room as the slain lamb...what is the only part of the Body that cannot be in Heaven....The Blood.....Yes it is a different body including the scars of the crucifixion.

Agreed.

Why? Why take the trouble to resurrect a body just to destroy it? Remember that many of these bodies have long since turned to dust. Why resurrect such a thing, reconstituting it for a judgment photo opportunities before redestroying it? Does that make any sense to you?

Yes, for the Soul has been in Hades (Hell) and will be reunited with the body before judgement...The lake of Fire is the SECOND death and one does not want the second death. It is His plan and He will stick to the smallest unit of it.

I thought that Jesus said God is capable of destroying both body and soul in hell. If destroying the body in hell makes it disappear forever, why doesn't destroying the soul in he'll make it disappear forever?

You hear of "death and hell" many time in the Bible.Death for the Body and Hell for the soul.. The Body will die a second death never to be resurrected again. The soul will remain in the lake of fire for an eternity away from GOD.

 

[Derf]

Rem, He is GOD...we see in throne room as the slain lamb...what is the only part of the Body that cannot be in Heaven....The Blood.....Yes it is a different body including the scars of the crucifixion.

Why was the tomb empty? If a new body was created, then the old body must have been around somewhere.

Yes, for the Soul has been in Hades (Hell) and will be reunited with the body before judgement...

Can you show me a scripture passage where the soul is reunited with the body before judgment?

And I think you're saying that the original body of the unbeliever is raised and reunited (since that's what "reunited" means--you can't reunite something that has never been united before). And therefore you must believe in the resurrection of the original body, at least for the unbeliever, right? Why not for the believer?

The lake of Fire is the SECOND death and one does not want the second death. It is His plan and He will stick to the smallest unit of it.

I agree that He has told us some will be thrown in the lake of fire.

You hear of "death and hell" many time in the Bible.Death for the Body and Hell for the soul.. The Body will die a second death never to be resurrected again. The soul will remain in the lake of fire for an eternity away from GOD.

That verse I quoted talks about "destruction" of both body and soul. Are you saying that "destruction" means something final for the body and not final for the soul? Again, that seems odd.