The body of Christ is the individual, elect, children of God.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
12 The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. 13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.
The body of Christ is the individual, elect, children of God.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
12 The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. 13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.
The body of Christ is the individual, elect, children of God.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
12 The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. 13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.
Individuals make up a construction team, but even if a construction team is guaranteed to be granted a contract, it does not guarantee that any individual will be part of that construction team if he leaves for another reason.
What exactly did he say to tip you off like that here? He only said one sentence. I don't agree with that sentence but it didn't sound like anti-Christ.
Or, as I've been saying for years:"I know that I'm saved, cuz my lifestyle tells me so."-Calvinist
Calvinism is just another warmed-over version of Catholicism, Mormonism,........="religion"=works-based performance system, that assesses whether you are saved, or lost.
What exactly did he say to tip you off like that here? He only said one sentence. I don't agree with that sentence but it didn't sound like anti-Christ.
Robert, not that I'm asking you to rail against me, but technically I believe that God predestinated everyone to hell before they were conceived. Everyone begins without belief, he that believeth not is condemned already, the condemnation is death and hell.
John 3:18 KJV
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
That isn't blasphemy against God and the Holy Spirit, that's just John 3:18 with the normal use of "predestined" to mean "destined" from "before" but without any respect to the individual. "In Adam all die..." (1 Corinthians 15:22)... Granted, I understand the Calvinist meaning to be "irrevocably predestined" which has its own particular horror.
1 John 2:2 KJV
(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
So if someone says that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world.... they would be wrong (see 1 John 2:2 above) but would that mistake be the same as denying that Jesus is Christ and has come in the flesh? (See antichrist, 1 John 2:18, 22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7).
If you are speaking to a devil, no amount of persuasion will be effective, but if you are speaking to a human who is mistaken, maybe accusing them of being the Spirit of Antichrist might not be the best way to win them to the truth.
Robert, not that I'm asking you to rail against me, but technically I believe that God predestinated everyone to hell before they were conceived. Everyone begins without belief, he that believeth not is condemned already, the condemnation is death and hell.
John 3:18 KJV
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
That isn't blasphemy against God and the Holy Spirit, that's just John 3:18 with the normal use of "predestined" to mean "destined" from "before" but without any respect to the individual. "In Adam all die..." (1 Corinthians 15:22)... Granted, I understand the Calvinist meaning to be "irrevocably predestined" which has its own particular horror.
1 John 2:2 KJV
(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
So if someone says that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world.... they would be wrong (see 1 John 2:2 above) but would that mistake be the same as denying that Jesus is Christ and has come in the flesh? (See antichrist, 1 John 2:18, 22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7).
If you are speaking to a devil, no amount of persuasion will be effective, but if you are speaking to a human who is mistaken, maybe accusing them of being the Spirit of Antichrist might not be the best way to win them to the truth.
You didn't finish 1 Corinthians 15:22 "So in Christ shall ALL be made alive". God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man. The law has been fulfilled and abolished. Our sins and the sins of the whole world have been atoned for. We and the whole world have been reconciled to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. salvation is now offered to everyone as a free gift from God, Romans 5:18.
And now we have some fools that believe that the only way to be saved is to be predestinated, which makes all of the above as worthless.
Love ... "that a man must muster up through his own effort?" Doesn't something sound a bit off in that phrase to you, even a little bit? Love is not something that "one does to try to earn salvation" but I'm getting the impression that was something being hinted at between the lines.
I don't hint. I'm saying flat out that those under the law had to muster up obedience through their own effort. I said nothing about salvation, did I? It would be best if we just addressed one subject at a time. So, loving our neighbor as ourselves is the LAW....a commandment.
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
Paul explains here that what the law could not do, in that was WEAK THROUGH THE FLESH...... This is my point. When our Lord walked among us, He was preaching the LAW of commandments. That's what Matt. 5 is dealing with.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
So let's speak to Matthew 5. From your statement, it sounds as if you are saying that Jesus was giving some sort of formula limited to his audience of "how to enter the Kingdom of Heaven." But do you see Jesus saying anything to limit his audience? Very few people heard that message then, whereas it has been heard and received by untold millions from in the writing of the gospels. That message is written for us as well. If Jesus gave standards that were impossible for them to achieve then, it was because he would send his spirit, and all things are possible with God.
No, I'm not talking about the "Kingdom of Heaven" at all. I'm talking about the Law and Love (fruits of the flesh) versus Grace and the fruit of the Spirit. There is a distinction here you refuse to address. What did our Lord preach while He walked among us, and who was He speaking to? It's to early to talk about who would read it in the future or what they might assume when they did read it. If you keep doing that, you'll miss the entire point.
We aren't talking about some principle, but of specifics. It's the specifics you're missing. You're avoiding them, in fact, because to acknowledge them will mean you are in error concerning your idea of One Gospel. Every time you try and mix law and grace, it's like trying to mix oil and water.
Individuals make up a construction team, but even if a construction team is guaranteed to be granted a contract, it does not guarantee that any individual will be part of that construction team if he leaves for another reason.
The body of Christ is not a construction team. The promises of God are not those of a worldly contractor. Have no fear. We have received the Spirit of adoption, and only await the redemption of our body.
Romans 8:15-17 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
I don't hint. I'm saying flat out that those under the law had to muster up obedience through their own effort. I said nothing about salvation, did I? It would be best if we just addressed one subject at a time. So, loving our neighbor as ourselves is the LAW....a commandment.
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
Paul explains here that what the law could not do, in that was WEAK THROUGH THE FLESH...... This is my point. When our Lord walked among us, He was preaching the LAW of commandments.
I can agree that it would be good to cut down subjects and branches, but I think that you've engaged at least three here.
1. I Jesus drew from Moses and the prophets when he taught, but he was teaching the Law of God which was greater than the Law of Moses. For example, where Moses said "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery" Jesus pointed to the law behind that law, a law defined by the thoughts of the heart, and not merely the actions of the flesh.
Matthew 5:27-28 KJV
(27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
(28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Therefore, there is a law greater than and more encompassing than that which was written in Moses. Jesus knew that law because it was His law, God's law. This law is not grievous, and it is not the law that Paul speaks against, but rather the law that we have all transgressed, for it says that "sin is the transgression of the law" and "all have sinned" (Romans 3:23 and 1 John 3:4).
2. Loving God and Loving thy neighbor are commandments that shall never cease and have universal application for everyone: they reflect the changeless character of God. You cannot hate your neighbor and love God (see 1 John 4:20) and we are told that he that loveth not knoweth not God (1 John 4:7).
1 John 4:8 KJV
(8) He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:20-21 KJV
(20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
(21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
And John goes so far to tell us that this new commandment is not a new commandment at all, it is an old commandment, and it still applies.
Spoiler
1 John 2:7-11 KJV
(7) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
(8) Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
(9) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
(10) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
(11) But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
Besides the connotation of "the Ten Commandments" a commandment simply means that which is commanded. "Take up thy bed and walk" was a commandment. If we are of Christ we therefore willingly do his commandments. "Blessed are they that do his commandments" (Revelation 22:14). The opposite of obeying his commandments is rebellion, and "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" (1 Samuel 15:23). Failure to obey a commandment is just that, a failure which can be forgiven, as can any sin or shortcoming provided it is not against the spirit of grace. The point is that it doesn't matter if you call "Love thy neighbor" a "Law" or a "Commandment, it remains God's law and God's commandment, and John goes so far to say that without this we cannot know God.
That's what Matt. 5 is dealing with.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
No, I'm not talking about the "Kingdom of Heaven" at all. I'm talking about the Law and Love (fruits of the flesh) versus Grace and the fruit of the Spirit. There is a distinction here you refuse to address. What did our Lord preach while He walked among us, and who was He speaking to? It's to early to talk about who would read it in the future or what they might assume when they did read it. If you keep doing that, you'll miss the entire point.
Making distinction from there "Law of Moses" the Law of God are laws of spirit and Love is the fruit of the Spirit. There are timeless laws that do not pass away, and these include "Love God" and "Love thy neighbor" ... strong enough by themselves that Jesus said that the whole law and the prophets (the whole scripture) could hang on those two statements.
This I do address, there is no such distinction. Can you abide in grace with fruits of the spirit while knowing not God and hating your neighbor? John says you cannot, he says that you would be a liar if you claimed you loved God while hating your brother. The lake of fire is reserved unto all liars, and grace has no application unto those that will not be merciful unto others after they have received mercy.
What did our Lord preach when he was among us? He preached repentance, he preached love, he preached the coming kingdom of God, he preached grace and forgiveness and mercy (no differences here.) To whom did he preach? He preached to those with ears to hear. Was he sent to the house of Israel? Yes, but he was also heard by the Centurion (Matthew 8:5) and the Syrophenician (Mark 7:26) and upon them he also had mercy.
We aren't talking about some principle, but of specifics. It's the specifics you're missing. You're avoiding them, in fact, because to acknowledge them will mean you are in error concerning your idea of One Gospel. Every time you try and mix law and grace, it's like trying to mix oil and water.
Can you give me a specific example? Because I could easily give specific examples to demonstrate that God's response to faith is consistent in general principle.
Hebrews 11:1-2 KJV
(1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
(2) For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:24-26 KJV
(24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
(25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
(26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Matthew 8:10,13 KJV
(10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
(13) And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Matthew 9:22 KJV
(22) But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Hebrews 11:6 KJV
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Acts 14:8-10 KJV
(8) And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
(9) The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
(10) Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
I could be more specific even than that. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and so forth. Specific examples of both before and after the flood, Jew and Gentile, before and after the crucifixion of Christ. So now that I have provided specifics, I'll restate the question:
Wouldn't you see the principle of God's response to faith as being a universal truth? God doesn't change his character in this regard, does he?
The body of Christ is not a construction team. The promises of God are not those of a worldly contractor. Have no fear. We have received the Spirit of adoption, and only await the redemption of our body.
Romans 8:15-17 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
A question: do you see these passages as being equally applicable to Jew and Gentile?
Matthew 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 25:26-30 KJV
(26) His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
(27) Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
(28) Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
(29) For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
(30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Hebrews 6:4-8 KJV
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
(8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
What was Pharaoh's heart hardened from and to what was it hardened? There is no indication that Pharaoh was inclined to be repentant as to sin, only that he might relent for his actions because they were directly causing him harm. Without the hardening of his heart, Israel would have been set free sooner, but Pharaoh is left in no better state towards salvation.
The point being that this hardening of the heart was not pertaining towards the question of salvation, and cannot thus be construed as applicable in the Calvinist meaning of "election."
I believe agreement is good, but most Open Theist have a problem here at this point. My anticipation was that I might have to give scriptures for Romans 9:17 Very definitely, Romans 9 focusses on individuals and God's purposes.
Furthermore, if God were to take someone's heart that was inclined to genuinely repent and prevent that repentance (of which I have not yet seen evidence of in scripture) I would not imagine that our God and Christ as revealed in our scriptures would both harden his heart and then irrevocably damn him for that hardness of heart that was the Lord's creation.
But with a pagan/heathen its okay? I admit Calvinism is a difficult proposition, but on the other hand, so is Open Theism and I'm not seeing a lot of anything "open" in Romans 9. Grace through Christ certainly opens a big door, but all classic/traditional theists were always that open. :think:
Can you imagine the parable of the sheep and the goats, instead with a response to the goats "I hardened your heart, so that I might cast you into hell fire?" That would be an entirely different parable.
