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Is Calvinism Wrong?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
beloved57
Well-known member
False teaching placing salvation to be conditioned on man. You believe sinners Christ died for are still eternally lost, so thats evidence you dont conditioned salvation solely on the doing and dying of Christ.
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You have a perverted doctrine and a perverted faith and is why you are void of the Holy Spirit.
beloved57
Well-known member
You place salvation in the doing of the sinner.
No I don't. Jesus is the savior. We are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus, Hebrews 7:25. But you will not be saved if you do not come to him.
Jesus stands at your door with his free gift of salvation, but you say no, I want to be predestinated.
beloved57
Well-known member
Since when did you become a believer in Jesus?
Ephesians Chapter one speaks about the BOC being predestined not individuals.
Rosenritter
New member
When you responded to "it is better to part with pride on our knees than to be cast into hell fire proudly defiant on our own two feet" with a comment about "errors from mixing dispensations" it seemed that you were saying that would only be applicable to Jews because it was derived from one of Christ's gospel statements. So that's why I asked for an explanation of your meaning: I'm not sure why you remarked there.
Agreed... that "Without faith it is impossible to please him" ... is a universal statement. It wasn't something limited by context, and regardless of whom it was originally spoken to it would be true because the character of God is constant and he is not a respecter of persons.
Is "Hebrews for the Hebrews?" Of course... and for everyone else as well. But I have heard protests in times past that basic universal statements from Hebrews only apply to Jews... perhaps not from you perhaps, but from those who proudly championed themselves as dispensationalists. It was shocking enough that it made a distinct memory - I would never have imagined (or accused) someone of dismissing scripture in that fashion.
The allusions to sacrifices, Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Melchizedek, the priesthood certainly draw on a knowledge that would have been less common to the gentile of that day, but I cannot see anything therein that does not have universal application to each and every Christian today, especially those of us that had read the Old Testament to recognize the reference.
Thanks for the response, and peace.
Rosenritter
New member
Love ... "that a man must muster up through his own effort?" Doesn't something sound a bit off in that phrase to you, even a little bit? Love is not something that "one does to try to earn salvation" but I'm getting the impression that was something being hinted at between the lines.
So let's speak to Matthew 5. From your statement, it sounds as if you are saying that Jesus was giving some sort of formula limited to his audience of "how to enter the Kingdom of Heaven." But do you see Jesus saying anything to limit his audience? Very few people heard that message then, whereas it has been heard and received by untold millions from in the writing of the gospels. That message is written for us as well. If Jesus gave standards that were impossible for them to achieve then, it was because he would send his spirit, and all things are possible with God.
Matthew 5:8 KJV
(8) Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Let's consider that statement for a moment: How does one have a pure heart? The first reference to "pure heart" in scripture is Psalm 24:4, a prophecy of the ascension of one into the hill of the LORD whose true identity is revealed as the LORD of Hosts. The next reference is from Proverbs 20:9, with a rhetorical question of:
Proverbs 20:9 KJV
(9) Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
A pure heart is not something that one "earns" or "achieves" or "musters up through ones own effort." Jesus knew that the words he spoke would be heard by those surrounding him then as well as preserved and received through the gospels in times to come. No one will enter his Kingdom devoid of the Spirit; those beatitudes do not describe carnal man.
Matthew 5:43-44, 48 KJV
(43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
That commandment does not make sense to the carnal mind that is at enmity with God; it needs his Spirit to be truly understood and exercised. And while the Holy Spirit may not have been given to the entire world at that time, that does not mean it was entirely absent either:
Luke 1:41-42 KJV
(41) And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
(42) And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Faith and grace and repentance from sin have been constant themes throughout the history of this world. The cross brought them to light to draw all men to him, but grace has always been the gift of God, and he has always called us to repentance and salvation.
Rosenritter
New member
Wouldn't you see the principle of God's response to faith as being a universal truth? God doesn't change his character in this regard, does he?
The Kingdom of Heaven which was at hand in Mt-Jn and early Acts was the earthly prophesied Davidic Kingdom of Messiah for the restored twelve tribes of Israel in the land promised and required Israel's faith and obedience.
The Sermon on the Mount Mt 5-7 was instructions for the believing remnant of Israel not the BOC:
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
With regard to humility and the bowing of knees, that is also universal:
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Eph_3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
The book of Hebrews is obviously written to believing Hebrews, but is beneficial for knowledge for all believers.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Rosenritter
New member
What was Pharaoh's heart hardened from and to what was it hardened? There is no indication that Pharaoh was inclined to be repentant as to sin, only that he might relent for his actions because they were directly causing him harm. Without the hardening of his heart, Israel would have been set free sooner, but Pharaoh is left in no better state towards salvation.
The point being that this hardening of the heart was not pertaining towards the question of salvation, and cannot thus be construed as applicable in the Calvinist meaning of "election."
Furthermore, if God were to take someone's heart that was inclined to genuinely repent and prevent that repentance (of which I have not yet seen evidence of in scripture) I would not imagine that our God and Christ as revealed in our scriptures would both harden his heart and then irrevocably damn him for that hardness of heart that was the Lord's creation.
Can you imagine the parable of the sheep and the goats, instead with a response to the goats "I hardened your heart, so that I might cast you into hell fire?" That would be an entirely different parable.
Rosenritter
New member
It is nice to see that the greater portion of those points were in agreement. But I would disagree on one:
The Kingdom Jesus spoke of was not a mere earthly kingdom: it was "not of this world" and to be directly reigned by God and Christ, to encompass all the earth, to put all things under his feet. It is fulfilled when God shall dwell with men, and it is this kingdom that is referred to throughout the New Testament, applicable to both Jew and Gentile, male and female, slave and free.
Matthew 6:33 KJV
(33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Romans 14:17 KJV
(17) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 KJV
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Colossians 1:13 KJV
(13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Peter 1:11 KJV
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Revelation 12:10-11 KJV
(10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
It always speaks of one Kingdom, and one King, and one God, and one Christ. The Kingdom is universal to Jew and Greek... and likewise the sermon on the mount would also be universal and fully relevant both then and now.
Sell all you have, comrade.
Fraud, rebel, refusing to rightly divide the word of truth.
Individuals make up the body of Christ.
It is OK that you do not get it. Predestination is not applied to the individual but to the Body of Christ.