ECT If your not OSAS then your not saved ,true or false?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yep. I had a hard time, if not impossible in some areas, finding a place where I heard the simple gospel (Paul's). I had been in a small fellowship new testament style assembly (in Bend) where many brothers got up and shared, so I heard it preached well and thoroughly, but when I moved it was difficult. I heard a bunch of do this and don't do that and drop your money in the plate. I hadn't heard of MAD until coming here, but I had been well exposed to Paul's letters in Bend, and that helped when I finally started hearing what the MADists were teaching.

I never heard of Mad before coming here either. Although, my beliefs
seem to coincide with that doctrine. I first heard the Gospel of my
salvation, (The Grace Gospel) in 1962. I still believe in the Grace
Gospel (Paul's Gospel) over 50 year's later.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Ah, but what of the multitude of verses that speak of the Power of God and the Promises of God? What of the Person in whom we have believed?

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.​

We are kept by the Power of God. Paul was confident the One who had begun a good work in us would perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ. Is God not able?

Saved means something, dear brother. Once we are adopted into God family, have been bought and paid for, are sealed with the Spirit of Promise.....we are safe within the shelter of our Loving God's arms. We are kept. He will never leave nor forsake us, and He will not allow us to slip from His hands. He knows we need Him. He knows we can't keep ourselves. He is busy conforming us into the image of the Son...both to will and do His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 We can rest assured that no matter what horrible trials come upon us...no matter how many times we fall down, no matter what the valley of the shadow of death presents to us....we have no need to fear, and should never doubt. He is with us.

Were you doubting God would keep you when you first believed?
Were you concerned you may not continue to believe? Or is it just those others who seem to fall away that you think of? I know it's none of my business, but I think it might be worth remembering exactly what you believed when you first believed and trusted God for your salvation.

AMEN

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

(a) is what Paul teaches. So is (b).

Since you seem not to want Scripture quoted to demonstrate both, I'll just ask: where exactly is the fallacy?

Good question. I hope DR gives a "logical answer?"

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

There's no such thing as, "Revolving door salvation." One does not
go in and out of God's Grace. Either you're a member of the Body of
Christ, or you're not. Examine yourself to see if you're "Truly" a Child
of God. (2 Corinthians 13:5) "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the
faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that
Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

 

[oatmeal]

Sounds good, but Paul makes it clear that believing is not a work.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

God's untruth tries to claim that work was circumcision etc., but it had nothing to do with anything Abraham did. God told him he would have a son and "against all hope" he was persuaded that God was able to perform what He had promised. If you read Eph. 2, you'll see we are saved by grace through faith.....not of yourselves...lest any should boast.

Think Oats....salvation is not a new car. It is a work of God (as you rightly said) done in our heart by the Spirit.....we are persuaded by God. God did the work of persuading....God did the work of saving....God does the work of keeping us. He does the work of conforming us into the image of the Son. The workers boast of what they have done. Boasting is excluded by the law of faith.

Please study context of Romans 4:5, for Paul is clear about what works he is referring to.

Paul is telling the Romans that by the deeds (the works) of the law no man shall be justified.

Fulfilling the two requirements of Romans 10:9-10 is not the deeds (the works) of the law.

Did Paul believe on him that justifies the ungodly?

Did Paul preach in many cities? How much work did that take? Did Paul physically and mentally and spiritually endure the persecutions against his ministry?

When Peter and John believed God to heal the lame man, did it take work for Peter to take him by the hand and raise him up? Did it take work for the man to get up?

In the record where Peter walks on water, did it take work for him to get out of the boat?

If God does it all for us, then it doesn't matter if we do anything at all, and for that matter it does not matter what we do, for if our receiving salvation does not involve us whatsoever, then why bother preach the gospel like Peter and Paul and other disciples did?

Does believing that God wants us to preach the gospel involve work on our part? It took a lot of work on Jesus part to preach the gospel, it took a lot of work on Peter's and Paul's part to preach the gospel.

We cannot earn salvation by our works, but since we choose to believe God, we will do the works of God that God called us to do. Ephesians 2:10, James 2:14-26

It takes work to believe, but believing without works is dead.

Paul is correct for he is speaking clearly about the works of the law as opposed to the works that result from believing.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It takes work to believe, but believing without works is dead.

.

Faith alone. You're paraphrasing James in your post. James was
preaching to the scattered sheep of the House of Israel, not to
the Body of Christ.

 

[musterion]

Still not seeing the fallacy.

 

[glorydaz]

Still not seeing the fallacy.

Go over to that Calvinist thread and listen to Nick Charles....you'll find a real tangled web being weaved.


I'm glad I came back here. :banana:

 

[glorydaz]

Reading your words hereinabove, sis, I thought on how that you have have appeared to have found yourself scratching your head as to where I am coming from, at times.

Not that the following might clear much up, but what you have related hereinabove is partly why where I am coming from at times appears odd from your point of view.

When I first stumbled onto TOL I already had years in an earlier A9D and those study methods that resulted in it.

One day, I ran across TOL's MAD forum while looking up various MAD groups and thought "cool; a MAD forum."

Then, as I dug in and began to read the posts, I was thrown for a moment, as I'd never heard of, the version of MAD often espoused there, anywhere else before.

I've found it fascinating, for the challenges it momentarily posed to my own A9D understanding.

But anyway, where you and your fellow MADists on here will at times differ when reading my posts is due to that. I subscribe to an earlier version of A9D.

Just to set the record straight. I haven't followed MAD as closely as you seem to assume. I wouldn't know the difference between your version and the other version. I know enough to see that the Gospels are different than Paul's letters. I can't see that it makes a hill of beans where you all make the "divide". I do see that it isn't at Acts 2, and that's as far as I'm willing to go. So, please stop assuming that we won't agree because of this debate with MAD. It simply has no basis in fact. It's why I told you I'd like to hear both sides without all the quibbling.

 

[glorydaz]

I appreciate your sincerity GD. And so with most other OSAS believers I know. Which I have also said often enough before. But it is somewhat of an optical illusion.

On the one hand, what you say doesn't in any way answer the point I made about the fallacy of special pleading.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I'm sorry if I didn't address every point you made...to be honest I didn't understand your point about "special pleading".

But on the other hand, the scripture you cite could be made to prove several and even contradictory points. Sure, God is able to keep us. I have no dispute with that. It is indeed basic to all our faith. But being able does not create a rule that it will always happen. And neither did I ever doubt that God would keep me.

Ah ha.....I could rest my case right there, but I'll read on.

But none of this adds up to OSAS. Unless you assume it in the first place. If you assume OSAS, then yes, this verse (and other similar vss) would be evidence of it. But it isn't proof at all. These verses are perfectly consistent with a non-OSAS view as well. God is able to keep me but I am also able to deny him.

Able to deny Him? As a new creature....created in Christ Jesus? :think:

Does this make my salvation uncertain? Not at all! If I have chosen to be Jesus' disciple with a willing and firm heart, then that is the end of the matter.

Ah ha....I rest my case again. It's the end of the matter.

If I made a fickle choice, if I wasn't really serious, perhaps just to see what I could get out of it, then I can certainly undo that choice. And I probably will. I would be one of the ones who Jesus spoke about as they were seed that fell on shallow soil, taking root quickly and growing fast, mesmerized perhaps by the newness of the faith, but as a fickle-minded person, soon turning away.

Fickle....not really serious. = NOT SAVED

And neither does it mean that I am part of the cause of my own salvation. This is not synergy. He alone brings about my salvation. But the fact that he alone brings it about doesn't imply that my choice is meaningless. I chose to believe in him, just as I continually choose to stay with him. But my choosing, nor anything I do or subsequently, achieves my salvation. I chose to live in the house I am currently living in, but I had absolutely nothing to do with building it. It is only he who does this through his death and resurrection. All the scriptures you cite supposedly as proof of OSAS also support this view. The difference is that OSAS is illogical, whereas mine is not.

Nope, YOU have assurance of salvation because you know you believed in your heart.....nothing fickle about it. That, dear brother, is logic.

 

[glorydaz]

Please study context of Romans 4:5, for Paul is clear about what works he is referring to.

Paul is telling the Romans that by the deeds (the works) of the law no man shall be justified.

Whoa up there. It's you that needs to check the context.

Romans 4:10
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

 

[Danoh]

Just to set the record straight. I haven't followed MAD as closely as you seem to assume. I wouldn't know the difference between your version and the other version. I know enough to see that the Gospels are different than Paul's letters. I can't see that it makes a hill of beans where you all make the "divide". I do see that it isn't at Acts 2, and that's as far as I'm willing to go. So, please stop assuming that we won't agree because of this debate with MAD. It simply has no basis in fact. It's why I told you I'd like to hear both sides without all the quibbling.

I'm not assuming anything.

My point was my appreciation of the fact that what we (all people) each understand (regardless of its extent) will impact what we each perceive when we look at a thing.

This is true whether a person is aware of what their understanding about a thing is, or not.

As when, for example, we find ourselves saying 'I can't put my finger on it, but there's something right/not right about this..."

That is an indicator that what we do or do not understand about it is impacting what we are seeing, we just don't yet understand what our understanding is at a conscious level - we "just know..."

You mentioned that you "can't see that it makes a hill of beans where you all make the 'divide.'"

We will agree or differ on that based on each our understanding of it.

Per my own understanding - 1 Cor. 3: 10-20 - it matters a bit more than a hill of beans.

But that was not my point; I am just addressing it here, since you concluded it was.

I was only attempting to fellowship with you when I expressed the above. I see it backfired and I've offended you; which was not my intent.

In the spirit of 2 Cor. 1:24, I think I'll bow out, as I do know my intent was good and that is good enough for me: for by faith you stand.

 

[Desert Reign]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I'm sorry if I didn't address every point you made...to be honest I didn't understand your point about "special pleading".

An explanation is here.
OSAS argues as follows: except when I become a Christian, my faith (my choice to believe) plays no role in my salvation.


W2G still hasn't answered my clear and direct question. I suspect he cannot. This is the same with all those who cherry pick scriptures out of context to support their doctrines.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

An explanation is here.
OSAS argues as follows: except when I become a Christian, my faith (my choice to believe) plays no role in my salvation.


W2G still hasn't answered my clear and direct question. I suspect he cannot. This is the same with all those who cherry pick scriptures out of context to support their doctrines.

OSAS makes us puppets after one moment of freewill to choose Christ. I really don't see much difference from Calvinistic puppeteering.

Having confidence and amazing hope of God fulfilling His promises doesn't mean we take God for granted.

I lived with anxiety when after knowing God and Christ were truth and I deliberately said no God I'm doing what I want. I lost my fear of God and I lost my hope, my peace, I lost Him.

Having come to my senses no doubt by His grace, but my free choice as well, allowed me to fear Him in the way that I should. My decision to surrender to Him brought Him right back, His fruit, His love, His peace.

The cares of this world, the devil are trying to drag us from Him, and they can if we choose to let them.

Love is free!!!! He loves us; He died for us, are we going to love Him back and live for Him, or ourselves?

We can never steal His Glory by doing good through surrender to Him, it is by Grace and the choice He gives us!

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

"But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from inequity."" 2 Timothy 2:19

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

OSAS makes us puppets after one moment of freewill to choose Christ.

Bought with a price, no longer your own, you now have an owner.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Bought with a price, no longer your own, you now have an owner.

A Father who will let us eat with the swine if we choose.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

The issue is born again of the Holy Spirit, or not. When it clicks there are fake Christians in all congregations, that Bible sermons are to a mixed congregation of virgins with and without oil in their lamps, the latter being repeatedly and fairly warned to repent, the fact of wheat and tares, and the unrepentant in all congregations; that there are those the Lord does not really know who profess Christ, but do not possess Christ, that is, the Spirit of Christ, then all will become clear as to why there are warnings in scripture, which you will even see in such as the structure of pronouns, like a "they" versus "you" in such as Hebrews 6.

Those who proclaim temporary eternal life, getting unborn again or unsealed, do not understand scripture nor even trust God, therefore should spend less time on message boards and more time learning what they're trying to comment on, at which point they may begin to speak of trust and faith in the Lord, instead of voicing doubts that reveal their lack of any strong faith in the very promises of God. Also, if you are led of the Holy Spirit, you KNOW God, and are SURE in that knowledge of the One living in you, and a clear understanding of what is, actually, basic, baby's milk doctrine in scripture many of you dispute over, all day long, only demonstrating you're wallowing in error over the very basics of saving faith, basics many children in Sunday school understand, better than you do.

For now, you naysayers would do well to stop making fools of yourselves and demonstrating to everybody with eyes to see you don't really understand the word of God.

OSAS: 101 Bible Reasons Proving Eternal Security​

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

The issue is born again of the Holy Spirit, or not. When it clicks there are fake Christians in all congregations, that Bible sermons are to a mixed congregation of virgins with and without oil in their lamps, the latter being repeatedly and fairly warned to repent, the fact of wheat and tares, and the unrepentant in all congregations; that there are those the Lord does not really know who profess Christ, but do not possess Christ, that is, the Spirit of Christ, then all will become clear as to why there are warnings in scripture, which you will even see in such as the structure of pronouns, like a "they" versus "you" in such as Hebrews 6.

Those who proclaim temporary eternal life, getting unborn again or unsealed, do not understand scripture nor even trust God, therefore should spend less time on message boards and more time learning what they're trying to comment on, at which point they may begin to speak of trust and faith in the Lord, instead of voicing doubts that reveal their lack of any strong faith in the very promises of God. Also, if you are led of the Holy Spirit, you KNOW God, and are SURE in that knowledge of the One living in you, and a clear understanding of what is, actually, basic, baby's milk doctrine in scripture many of you dispute over, all day long, only demonstrating you're wallowing in error over the very basics of saving faith, basics many children in Sunday school understand, better than you do.

For now, you naysayers would do well to stop making fools of yourselves and demonstrating to everybody with eyes to see you don't really understand the word of God.

OSAS: 101 Bible Reasons Proving Eternal Security​

"So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Note the kindness and severity of God: severity towards those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off." Romans 11:20-22

Why be opposed to humility and the proper fear of God?

Instead of saying if you were not such a fool you would be saved like me.

 

[God's Truth]

The issue is born again of the Holy Spirit, or not. When it clicks there are fake Christians in all congregations, that Bible sermons are to a mixed congregation of virgins with and without oil in their lamps, the latter being repeatedly and fairly warned to repent, the fact of wheat and tares, and the unrepentant in all congregations; that there are those the Lord does not really know who profess Christ, but do not possess Christ, that is, the Spirit of Christ, then all will become clear as to why there are warnings in scripture, which you will even see in such as the structure of pronouns, like a "they" versus "you" in such as Hebrews 6.

Those who proclaim temporary eternal life, getting unborn again or unsealed, do not understand scripture nor even trust God, therefore should spend less time on message boards and more time learning what they're trying to comment on, at which point they may begin to speak of trust and faith in the Lord, instead of voicing doubts that reveal their lack of any strong faith in the very promises of God. Also, if you are led of the Holy Spirit, you KNOW God, and are SURE in that knowledge of the One living in you, and a clear understanding of what is, actually, basic, baby's milk doctrine in scripture many of you dispute over, all day long, only demonstrating you're wallowing in error over the very basics of saving faith, basics many children in Sunday school understand, better than you do.

For now, you naysayers would do well to stop making fools of yourselves and demonstrating to everybody with eyes to see you don't really understand the word of God.

Being born again means you are washed clean of all the sins you have ever committed.

When a person is born again, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and they are to live their life through the Holy Spirit, and the only way they can do that is by obeying.

If a person preaches against obeying Jesus to be saved, and to stay saved, then that person is in a snare of Satan's.

If a born again person stops having faith in Jesus and lives his life as one who has not been born again, then they could fall into the same judgement as the devil.

If you find yourself in God's hand, then that could turn into a dreadful thing, if you do not keep in the faith and obey.

Hebrews 10:31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Tell me, why don't you believe the written Word of God that says if you do not keep believing and obeying then the hand that you fell into will be a dreadful thing for you?