ECT If your not OSAS then your not saved ,true or false?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Jesus saves those who obey him, for those are the people he gives the Holy Spirit to.

See Acts 5:32.

That was being spoken to those under the "Kingdom Message."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Anyone not blind reading your posts.

?

 

[God's Truth]

That was being spoken to those under the "Kingdom Message."

You are trying to take away power from God's Word.

You are trying to divide God up and lessen His Word.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You show you are an unrighteous judge.

Maybe I am a faster typist and have better Internet service?

Maybe I have more people who want to discuss with me?

You sure show there is something wrong with you.

Are you perhaps, "Delusional?"

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You are trying to take away power from God's Word.

You are trying to divide God up and lessen His Word.

What you're saying, makes no sense?

 

[Lon]

I agree with that much, too, as far as it goes. But the fact remains that 99% of people who HATE the very idea of Unconditional Eternal Security In Christ, if you ask them (and if they're honest) will tell you being justified by God demands works -- either to get it or to keep it. That's a false gospel, meaning they're not saved at all. As I said earlier, I've yet to meet an exception to this, either in real life or here on this board, but I allow for the misled-but-saved people you described.

Okay, I'll give my own story: I asked Christ to save me when I was 7. I didn't live well, didn't really embrace 'works' for 9 years. I was in an Arminian church, thus was 'sold' the idea that works were necessary to keep salvation (works are, in a way necessary of a new creation vs an old one, we will 'do' whatever is in our given nature to do, thus there is a certain 'necessity to it by association of such a nature).
I was constantly worried via Hebrews 6:4-8 etc. that I'd already lost salvation, that it was "impossible, once enlightened, to return" to Christ in repentance, for I'd be "crucifying Him all over again." It was a sad place to be. If Arminians were honest, they'd see all fleshly works as woefully inadequate. It would necessarily eliminate 'works salvation.'

For me at least, I couldn't 'keep it' so was doomed. I was, I thought "lost."

Looking back, I trusted Christ to save me. I believe, because "HE" does it, I was saved. Me not understanding something would actually undo irrevocable salvation. It would be against the notion that Christ saves us and be a neurotic way of thinking that somehow, my absolutely correct knowledge would save me. That too, is what Christ saves against. In my case, He brought me to a right understanding through correction, but my salvation, in trusting Him, has to have been assured else not all who call on the name of the Lord would be saved. Romans 10:13

If one has heard Paul's gospel of grace presented correctly, with Christ dying for all sin (Col 1:13; 2:13; 3:13), the logical necessity is "no condemnation" because he/she died in Christ to Law...hence UESIC.

I believe Christ saved me when I asked Him too. I was intellectually/emotionally lost in doubt under Arminian influence, but I believe this story is about Christ and not me. I might have even repeated, ignorantly and fearfully, the Arminian party-line regarding works.

1 John 4:18 corrected me. God corrected my thinking. Hebrews 7:25 2 Timothy 2:13

I think you are correct that there is a difference between confusion inside and outside the faith, but I'm not sure which is which. I believe, God saves even the one who wrongly comes to believe he/she can fall out of God's hands but calls on Him to save them and isn't trusting self for their own salvation. They (I at the time) are just incorrect that they are 'having to do something to stay in His grace.'

Humbly, -Lon

You can be saved and mistakenly believe a lot of things. But one thing you cannot mistake is that belief that causes the Holy Spirit to baptize you into the body of Christ. It's that belief in your heart that it is God that saves and keeps us. A person can have doubts about their own personal faith....maybe I'm fooling myself, and God didn't save me. That's why we are to examine ourselves so we can recognize there is NOTHING in ourselves that can save us or keep us saved but God. Every legitimate doubt is in ourselves.....never that God isn't able to keep us or won't keep us unless we do thus and so. To preach we must endure or we much perform is belief in man....not God. It's humanism, and I've never seen where man can successfully give credit or glory for his salvation to himself.

It is a trust in Christ's work, not our own (monergism). :up:
The question remains, was I saved prior, under the heavy hand of Arminians telling me I had to keep it? I 'fretted' but wrested long with the scriptures giving security. It was more about implanted doubts than not trusting Christ. I was constantly asking Him "how much of this is my responsibility?" It was the wrong question. "How much of this is Your responsibility?" was the right question. The answer of course, was "All of it." -Lon

 

[way 2 go]

Okay, I'll give my own story: I asked Christ to save me when I was 7. I didn't live well, didn't really embrace 'works' for 9 years. I was in an Arminian church, thus was 'sold' the idea that works were necessary to keep salvation (works are, in a way necessary of a new creation vs an old one, we will 'do' whatever is in our given nature to do, thus there is a certain 'necessity to it by association of such a nature).
I was constantly worried via Hebrews 6:4,5 etc. that I'd already lost salvation, that it was "impossible, once enlightened, to return" to Christ in repentance, for I'd be "crucifying Him all over again." It was a sad place to be. If Arminians were honest, they'd see all fleshly works as woefully inadequate. It would necessarily eliminate 'works salvation.'

For me at least, I couldn't 'keep it' so was doomed. I was, I thought "lost."


I believe Christ saved me when I asked Him too. I was intellectually/emotionally lost in doubt under Arminian influence, but I believe this story is about Christ and not me. I might have even repeated, ignorantly and fearfully, the Arminian party-line regarding works.

1 John 4:18 corrected me. God corrected my thinking. Hebrews 7:25 2 Timothy 2:13

I think you are correct that there is a difference between confusion inside and outside the faith, but I'm not sure which is which. I believe, God saves even the one who wrongly comes to believe he/she can fall out of God's hands but calls on Him to save them and isn't trusting self for their own salvation. They (I at the time) are just incorrect that they are 'having to do something to stay in His grace.'

Humbly, was I fearfully saved, or was I lost,
-Lon

It is a trust in Christ's work, not our own (monergism). :up:
The question remains, was I saved prior, under the heavy hand of Arminians telling me I had to keep it? I 'fretted' but wrested long with the scriptures giving security. It was more about implanted doubts than not trusting Christ. I was constantly asking Him "how much of this is my responsibility?"

in retrospect do you now know you were saved the whole time ?

 

[Lon]

in retrospect do you now know you were saved the whole time ?

Yes, 'in retrospect' only. During that time? No. Arminian thought and their rendering of those scriptures, cast me into doubt.

Romans 10:13. I called.

John 20:31; 1John 5:13 both indicated that 'wrestling' with the idea is acceptable, but to be corrected, I believe.


1 John 4:18 (my 'knowledge' of love had not been perfected, notice, however it is not a 'perfect knowledge' of love, but 'Perfect Love' that drives out fear The Love of Christ, drives out fear (and bad associative theology). In Him

 

[glorydaz]

Okay, I'll give my own story: I asked Christ to save me when I was 7. I didn't live well, didn't really embrace 'works' for 9 years. I was in an Arminian church, thus was 'sold' the idea that works were necessary to keep salvation (works are, in a way necessary of a new creation vs an old one, we will 'do' whatever is in our given nature to do, thus there is a certain 'necessity to it by association of such a nature).
I was constantly worried via Hebrews 6:4,5 etc. that I'd already lost salvation, that it was "impossible, once enlightened, to return" to Christ in repentance, for I'd be "crucifying Him all over again." It was a sad place to be. If Arminians were honest, they'd see all fleshly works as woefully inadequate. It would necessarily eliminate 'works salvation.'

I don't think you heard the gospel of salvation preached if they were preaching works. Children believe in God way before they are held accountable.

For me at least, I couldn't 'keep it' so was doomed. I was, I thought "lost."

Looking back, I trusted Christ to save me. I believe, because "HE" does it, I was saved. Me not understanding something would actually undo irrevocable salvation. It would be against the notion that Christ saves us and be a neurotic way of thinking that somehow, my absolutely correct knowledge would save me. That too, is what Christ saves against. In my case, He brought me to a right understanding through correction, but my salvation, in trusting Him, has to have been assured else not all who call on the name of the Lord would be saved. Romans 10:13


I believe Christ saved me when I asked Him too. I was intellectually/emotionally lost in doubt under Arminian influence, but I believe this story is about Christ and not me. I might have even repeated, ignorantly and fearfully, the Arminian party-line regarding works.

1 John 4:18 corrected me. God corrected my thinking. Hebrews 7:25 2 Timothy 2:13

I think you are correct that there is a difference between confusion inside and outside the faith, but I'm not sure which is which. I believe, God saves even the one who wrongly comes to believe he/she can fall out of God's hands but calls on Him to save them and isn't trusting self for their own salvation. They (I at the time) are just incorrect that they are 'having to do something to stay in His grace.'

Humbly, -Lon

It is a trust in Christ's work, not our own (monergism). :up:
The question remains, was I saved prior, under the heavy hand of Arminians telling me I had to keep it? I 'fretted' but wrested long with the scriptures giving security. It was more about implanted doubts than not trusting Christ. I was constantly asking Him "how much of this is my responsibility?" It was the wrong question. "How much of this is Your responsibility?" was the right question. The answer of course, was "All of it." -Lon

My story is quite similar in that I believed in God early on. I got really interested in God through the Catholic Church but the Gospel was so masked by religion, it was really all head knowledge. When I was saved, I heard the Gospel preached and believed it. There was no doubt.....there was not a moment of thinking I had to do ...or even could do anything.


I believe you were saved when God "corrected your thinking". It was actually your heart that was "corrected". It's when you finally believed that God was able to perform what He had promised. It wasn't until the peace that passes understanding came upon you....it wasn't until the fear and sense of doom had disappeared.

I was in my early twenties. God never promises we will undergo the Operation of God when we first call upon Him at seven years old. There is preparation that needs to take place. What I read in your testimony is preparation. I had mine...we all must.

Colossians 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;​

 

[Lon]

I don't think you heard the gospel of salvation preached if they were preaching works. Children believe in God way before they are held accountable.



My story is quite similar in that I believed in God early on. I got really interested in God through the Catholic Church but the Gospel was so masked by religion, it was really all head knowledge. When I was saved, I heard the Gospel preached and believed it. There was no doubt.....there was not a moment of thinking I had to do ...or even could do anything.


I believe you were saved when God "corrected your thinking". It was actually your heart that was "corrected". It's when you finally believed that God was able to perform what He had promised. It wasn't until the peace that passes understanding came upon you....it wasn't until the fear and sense of doom had disappeared.

Romans 8:16 would confirm that. I believed I was saved, but doubted my own ability to keep it. I did not doubt God, but rather what I believed I 'might' have to do to keep it. For me, a process of rightly seeing my works as inadequate, only confirmed for me that only Christ Jesus our Lord, could. Because then, this was about Him, I was saved 2000 years ago. The date of conversion, I'd probably agree with you as far as my awareness.

John 20:31; 1John 5:13 both indicated that 'wrestling' with the idea is acceptable, but to be corrected, I believe.

I was in my early twenties. God never promises we will undergo the Operation of God when we first call upon Him at seven years old. There is preparation that needs to take place. What I read in your testimony is preparation. I had mine...we all must.

Colossians 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
​

Good scripture. "Let the little children come to me for..." I was little.

I came to Him and desired Him. This verse completes in Matthew 19:14 with "for the Kingdom of Heaven is for them." I believe God kept you from your early seeking to realization of salvation. As such, it might be seen that that 'realization' was your day of salvation. Truly scriptures agree with you: 2 Corinthians 6:2 and Hebrews 3:7,15;4:7

My question: Was I saved when I believed, or when Christ determined to save you and me? I think it is important to acknowledge the important transition from death to life, and that certainly was the day and hour of our salvation but for me, I see a whole lot more of Him (monergism) than me in both saving me, and keeping me. If, at all, it depends/depended on me, that narrow path would have been incredibly narrow indeed (only Christ).

Among other incredibly important threads on TOL, this would be up there in my top 5 to 10 this year. We must be saved, by Christ alone. Acts 4:12 John 14:6 Romans 10:9&10

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 8:16 would confirm that. I believed I was saved, but doubted my own ability to keep it. I did not doubt God, but rather what I believed I 'might' have to do to keep it. For me, a process of rightly seeing my works as inadequate, only confirmed for me that only Christ Jesus our Lord, could. Because then, this was about Him, I was saved 2000 years ago. The date of conversion, I'd probably agree with you as far as my awareness.



Good scripture. "Let the little children come to me for..." I was little.

I came to Him and desired Him. This verse completes in Matthew 19:14 with "for the Kingdom of Heaven is for them." I believe God kept you from your early seeking to realization of salvation. As such, it might be seen that that 'realization' was your day of salvation. Truly scriptures agree with you: 2 Corinthians 6:2 and Hebrews 3:7,15;4:7

I'm of the belief that all children believe....the knowledge of God is plainly seen and understood by us all. Once we reach the age to choose evil over good and understand what we're doing, we are held accountable. It's at that point we need to hear and believe the gospel.

Romans 1:19-22
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

My question: Was I saved when I believed, or when Christ determined to save you and me? I think it is important to acknowledge the important transition from death to life, and that certainly was the day and hour of our salvation but for me, I see a whole lot more of Him (monergism) than me in both saving me, and keeping me. If, at all, it depends/depended on me, that narrow path would have been incredibly narrow indeed (only Christ).

Among other incredibly important threads on TOL, this would be up there in my top 5 to 10 this year. We must be saved, by Christ alone. Acts 4:12 John 14:6 Romans 10:9&10

That measure of faith we are all born with only covers us until we are held accountable by God. I can remember when my conscience began to convict me and I felt guilt. As I struggled with that, I questioned whether there really was a God....I became vain in my imaginings. Doubt and fear and loss caused me to look beyond myself. If God did it all for us, then He would be unjust if He didn't do it all for everyone. There is the big dilemma for so many. God didn't believe for me, but He was so patient and long suffering that when that "Day of Salvation" arrived, I was prepared and desirous of the Light presented by the glorious Gospel. I chose not to turn back to the darkness....I'd had enough of that. Some love it more than the light. That doesn't make me better. Anymore than the fact that I would never consider gunning down a bunch of school children....even before I was saved. We are individuals not clones preprogrammed. God is reaching down and we can rejoice in that or refuse Him. :idunno:

 

[way 2 go]

I don't think you heard the gospel of salvation preached if they were preaching works. Children believe in God way before they are held accountable.

bait n switch
they preach grace
then once your saved
it is saved to keep the law

My story is quite similar in that I believed in God early on. I got really interested in God through the Catholic Church but the Gospel was so masked by religion, it was really all head knowledge.

the catholic church is different no salvation message
more concerned with you being catholic than anything else

 

[Interplanner]

If we deny Him, he will deny us. I Tim 3

 

[glorydaz]

If we deny Him, he will deny us. I Tim 3

Chapter and verse?

 

[Lon]

I had written a lengthy response with scriptures, but thought my comments got in the way of scriptures and so, just the scriptures. In Him

If God did it all for us, then He would be unjust if He didn't do it all for everyone.

Romans 9:14-21

There is the big dilemma for so many. God didn't believe for me, but He was so patient and long suffering that when that "Day of Salvation" arrived, I was prepared and desirous of the Light presented by the glorious Gospel.

Colossians 1:17 1 Corinthians 4:7 Romans 9:14,18-21

I chose not to turn back to the darkness....I'd had enough of that.

Philippians 2:13 Job 13:15 Romans 9:14

Some love it more than the light. That doesn't make me better. Anymore than the fact that I would never consider gunning down a bunch of school children....even before I was saved. We are individuals not clones preprogrammed. God is reaching down and we can rejoice in that or refuse Him. :idunno:

Romans 9:14,19 John 15:5,15-17

It is a list of monergistic and synergistic understandings regarding our Salvation.

 

[Danoh]

Chapter and verse?

Must be a lost chapter :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

bait n switch
they preach grace
then once your saved
it is saved to keep the law

I've been to a lot of churches that allude to grace, but actually preach "Repent and be baptized". They preach Matt. 5 and the gospel of the kingdom much more than the Gospel of Salvation.....which is why we have so many God's untruths and Meshaks.

the catholic church is different no salvation message
more concerned with you being catholic than anything else

In many ways, they preach a better message than many other "churches". It's where I saw our Lord on the cross. It's where I associated His being on the cross with forgiveness of sins. It's where I saw people (nuns and teachers) really devoted to serving the Lord instead of themselves.

Six one half dozen the other.....

 

[glorydaz]

Must be a lost chapter :chuckle:

Ya think?

 

[glorydaz]

I had written a lengthy response with scriptures, but thought my comments got in the way of scriptures and so, just the scriptures. In Him
Romans 9:14-21
Colossians 1:17 1 Corinthians 4:7 Romans 9:14,18-21
Philippians 2:13 Job 13:15 Romans 9:14

Romans 9:14,19 John 15:5,15-17

It is a list of monergistic and synergistic understandings regarding our Salvation.

Well, I'm not much for the terms, but I do know how some of the verses are used to claim God only has mercy on some and not others. They are taken out of context.

 

[intojoy]

if your not OSAS then your not saved ,true or false?

Anyone who believes on Christ is saved. Unless they are like Meshakkeypur

But for those who just can't understand because of a low comprehension they still are in