ECT If your not OSAS then your not saved ,true or false?

[Lon]

Well, I'm not much for the terms, but I do know how some of the verses are used to claim God only has mercy on some and not others. They are taken out of context.

They are just 'context' as given. They speak for themselves. I cannot argue with Romans 9. It is incredibly clear in context.

John 20:31; 1John 5:13 both indicated that 'wrestling' with the idea is acceptable, but to be corrected, I believe.


1 John 4:18

The verses that provide assurance of salvation are given 1) to believers and 2) to believers who need assurance. As such, there is a contention on 'when' someone is saved, though as I said, I'd not argue over the matter of 'when' one is saved. Because I'm a monergist, such is God's work in entirety. MAD may or not agree with this paragraph, I don't know. I agree with IntoJoy:

Anyone who believes on Christ is saved.
But for those who just can't understand because of a low comprehension they still are in

Romans 10:9&10 "will" or"shall" be saved...

As far as synergism- (we respond to God and are responsible for receiving our Salvation), or monergism - (God is entirely responsible), it isn't something I wanted overtly distracting the thread, and so just posted the verses.

As far as OSAS, I believe scriptures provide assurance to 'believers' lacking it, but are saved, thus believe it isn't true.

Am I reading you right here, as saying the OP is true, or something else?

 

[way 2 go]

If we deny Him, he will deny us. I Tim 3

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

 

[Desert Reign]

Depends on what gospel a person has believed. It's really that simple because it's demonstrable that almost* every person who is anti-OSAS believes they must do some form of work to either be placed into Christ or to remain in Him, or both. Either one of those is not Paul's gospel.

* I say "almost" only because I have yet to meet an exception, but I suppose there could be one who has believed the Gospel but has also been deceived somewhere along the way. Every one I've met has been very up-front about the requirement of works somewhere along the line.

Well, you've met me. And you know about me, just try to remember a little harder!
The OP:

If your not OSAS then your not saved ,true or false?

A general principle:

Be careful not to replace the reliance on works of the Pharisees with a reliance on doctrine. The doctrines you believe are not relevant to salvation. It is not the prerogative of Christians to say who is saved and who is not. It is up to the Lord himself. You are not the judge of me. The Pharisees did exactly the same thing, laying down rules and regulations that qualify you for salvation. Please do not do this. Neither I nor any other Christian answers to you.

There are simply no scriptures to justify the OSAS view. The OSAS view is also illogical as it suffers from a well known fallacy called special pleading. This means that you make one exception to a rule that doesn't suit you and you expect your argument to succeed because it is exceptional.

To be precise, OSAS believers assert that throughout the believer's life, he is kept without reference to his own free choices in the love of God. But they acknowledge that initial repentance and salvation are - exceptionally - freely chosen by the individual.

No amount of scripture quoting can overcome this fallacy.

For example:

If we deny Him, he will deny us. I Tim 3

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

So what you are saying w2g, is that scripture contradicts itself? If not, can you give us an explanation of the above passages - in their context.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well, you've met me. And you know about me, just try to remember a little harder!
The OP:
A general principle:

Be careful not to replace the reliance on works of the Pharisees with a reliance on doctrine. The doctrines you believe are not relevant to salvation. It is not the prerogative of Christians to say who is saved and who is not. It is up to the Lord himself. You are not the judge of me. The Pharisees did exactly the same thing, laying down rules and regulations that qualify you for salvation. Please do not do this. Neither I nor any other Christian answers to you.

There are simply no scriptures to justify the OSAS view. The OSAS view is also illogical as it suffers from a well known fallacy called special pleading. This means that you make one exception to a rule that doesn't suit you and you expect your argument to succeed because it is exceptional.

To be precise, OSAS believers assert that throughout the believer's life, he is kept without reference to his own free choices in the love of God. But they acknowledge that initial repentance and salvation are - exceptionally - freely chosen by the individual.

No amount of scripture quoting can overcome this fallacy.

For example:




So what you are saying w2g, is that scripture contradicts itself? If not, can you give us an explanation of the above passages - in their context.

The Holy Spirit indwells, seals, and baptizes the "True Believer"
into the Body of Christ once they truly place their faith in Christ.

The "True Believer" also receives the "Righteousness of Christ."
None of the Holy Spirits work can be undone for any reason. If
you believe you can lose your position in Christ, then, you have
not truly been persuaded by the truths of Scripture and more
than likely, aren't saved.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well, I'm not much for the terms, but I do know how some of the verses are used to claim God only has mercy on some and not others. They are taken out of context.

And, misinterpreted to fit ones belief system.

 

[way 2 go]

Be careful not to replace the reliance on works of the Pharisees with a reliance on doctrine. The doctrines you believe are not relevant to salvation. It is not the prerogative of Christians to say who is saved and who is not. It is up to the Lord himself. You are not the judge of me. The Pharisees did exactly the same thing, laying down rules and regulations that qualify you for salvation. Please do not do this. Neither I nor any other Christian answers to you.

Jesus Christ is the final judge but he wants us to judge too.
I will use obvious examples jw's and mormons are judged by their doctrine
and judged not saved
Christians have to judge somethings

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus Christ is the final judge but he wants us to judge too.
I will use obvious examples jw's and mormons are judged by their doctrine
and judged not saved
Christians have to judge somethings

True.... It isn't like we're condemning anyone to hell. We're speaking of whether a man can be truly saved without assurance of salvation.

1 Corinthians 2:15-16
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.​

 

[glorydaz]

They are just 'context' as given. They speak for themselves. I cannot argue with Romans 9. It is incredibly clear in context.


The verses that provide assurance of salvation are given 1) to believers and 2) to believers who need assurance. As such, there is a contention on 'when' someone is saved, though as I said, I'd not argue over the matter of 'when' one is saved. Because I'm a monergist, such is God's work in entirety. MAD may or not agree with this paragraph, I don't know. I agree with IntoJoy:

Romans 10:9&10 "will" or"shall" be saved...

As far as synergism- (we respond to God and are responsible for receiving our Salvation), or monergism - (God is entirely responsible), it isn't something I wanted overtly distracting the thread, and so just posted the verses.

As far as OSAS, I believe scriptures provide assurance to 'believers' lacking it, but are saved, thus believe it isn't true.

Am I reading you right here, as saying the OP is true, or something else?

Since we disagree it would probably be best to stick to the OP. :thumb:

I believe the answer to the OP is answered by the question, "Whom to do trust for your salvation?" If it's God, then trust Him with all your heart.

 

[musterion]

I've been to a lot of churches that allude to grace, but actually preach "Repent and be baptized".

Yep. Before I went MAD, I was IFB. They calculate their number of new converts not by who believes the Gospel but by how many they dunk.

 

[Desert Reign]

Jesus Christ is the final judge but he wants us to judge too.
I will use obvious examples jw's and mormons are judged by their doctrine
and judged not saved
Christians have to judge somethings

Being discerning is not the same as judging a person by his doctrines alone.

But in any case you have not answered my direct question.

 

[musterion]

Well, you've met me. And you know about me, just try to remember a little harder!

Oh, I remember. We went round and round more than once but the bottom line is still what it always was: if your entire sin debt has been paid, if God has declared you dead and alive again in Christ, and if you died to the principle of Law, then you're unconditionally eternally secure in Christ. Like it or not.

 

[glorydaz]

To be precise, OSAS believers assert that throughout the believer's life, he is kept without reference to his own free choices in the love of God. But they acknowledge that initial repentance and salvation are - exceptionally - freely chosen by the individual.

No amount of scripture quoting can overcome this fallacy.

Ah, but what of the multitude of verses that speak of the Power of God and the Promises of God? What of the Person in whom we have believed?

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.​

We are kept by the Power of God. Paul was confident the One who had begun a good work in us would perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ. Is God not able?

Saved means something, dear brother. Once we are adopted into God family, have been bought and paid for, are sealed with the Spirit of Promise.....we are safe within the shelter of our Loving God's arms. We are kept. He will never leave nor forsake us, and He will not allow us to slip from His hands. He knows we need Him. He knows we can't keep ourselves. He is busy conforming us into the image of the Son...both to will and do His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 We can rest assured that no matter what horrible trials come upon us...no matter how many times we fall down, no matter what the valley of the shadow of death presents to us....we have no need to fear, and should never doubt. He is with us.

Were you doubting God would keep you when you first believed?
Were you concerned you may not continue to believe? Or is it just those others who seem to fall away that you think of? I know it's none of my business, but I think it might be worth remembering exactly what you believed when you first believed and trusted God for your salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

Anyone who believes on Christ is saved. Unless they are like Meshakkeypur

But for those who just can't understand because of a low comprehension they still are in

What's cool about those with "low comprehension" is their simple faith. Like a child trusts his parents to keep him safe.

Others, who seem to have a "low comprehension", like God's untruth and those you mention, is that PRIDE is keeping them from hearing the truth of the gospel and thus believing unto righteousness.

 

[musterion]

Originally Posted by Desert Reign

To be precise, OSAS believers assert that throughout the believer's life, he (a) is kept without reference to his own free choices in the love of God. But they acknowledge that (b) initial repentance and salvation are - exceptionally - freely chosen by the individual.

No amount of scripture quoting can overcome this fallacy.

(a) is what Paul teaches. So is (b).

Since you seem not to want Scripture quoted to demonstrate both, I'll just ask: where exactly is the fallacy?

 

[glorydaz]

Yep. Before I went MAD, I was IFB. They calculate their number of new converts not by who believes the Gospel but by how many they dunk.

Yep. I had a hard time, if not impossible in some areas, finding a place where I heard the simple gospel (Paul's). I had been in a small fellowship new testament style assembly (in Bend) where many brothers got up and shared, so I heard it preached well and thoroughly, but when I moved it was difficult. I heard a bunch of do this and don't do that and drop your money in the plate. I hadn't heard of MAD until coming here, but I had been well exposed to Paul's letters in Bend, and that helped when I finally started hearing what the MADists were teaching.

 

[musterion]

99% of the anti-OSAS crowd, because they can't really offer pure, undiluted grace. Apologies to GRIT magazine.

 

[Danoh]

Yep. I had a hard time, if not impossible in some areas, finding a place where I heard the simple gospel (Paul's). I had been in a small fellowship new testament style assembly (in Bend) where many brothers got up and shared, so I heard it preached well and thoroughly, but when I moved it was difficult. I heard a bunch of do this and don't do that and drop your money in the plate. I hadn't heard of MAD until coming here, but I had been well exposed to Paul's letters in Bend, and that helped when I finally started hearing what the MADists were teaching.

Reading your words hereinabove, sis, I thought on how that you have have appeared to have found yourself scratching your head as to where I am coming from, at times.

Not that the following might clear much up, but what you have related hereinabove is partly why where I am coming from at times appears odd from your point of view.

When I first stumbled onto TOL I already had years in an earlier A9D and those study methods that resulted in it.

One day, I ran across TOL's MAD forum while looking up various MAD groups and thought "cool; a MAD forum."

Then, as I dug in and began to read the posts, I was thrown for a moment, as I'd never heard of, the version of MAD often espoused there, anywhere else before.

I've found it fascinating, for the challenges it momentarily posed to my own A9D understanding.

But anyway, where you and your fellow MADists on here will at times differ when reading my posts is due to that. I subscribe to an earlier version of A9D.

 

[way 2 go]

Being discerning is not the same as judging a person by his doctrines alone.

discern judge are the same thing
if someones doctrine is Jesus and lucifer are brothers, I judge them as lost

But in any case you have not answered my direct question.

what is the question ?

 

[Desert Reign]

Ah, but what of the multitude of verses that speak of the Power of God and the Promises of God? What of the Person in whom we have believed?

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.​

We are kept by the Power of God. Paul was confident the One who had begun a good work in us would perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ. Is God not able?

Saved means something, dear brother. Once we are adopted into God family, have been bought and paid for, are sealed with the Spirit of Promise.....we are safe within the shelter of our Loving God's arms. We are kept. He will never leave nor forsake us, and He will not allow us to slip from His hands. He knows we need Him. He knows we can't keep ourselves. He is busy conforming us into the image of the Son...both to will and do His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 We can rest assured that no matter what horrible trials come upon us...no matter how many times we fall down, no matter what the valley of the shadow of death presents to us....we have no need to fear, and should never doubt. He is with us.

Were you doubting God would keep you when you first believed?
Were you concerned you may not continue to believe? Or is it just those others who seem to fall away that you think of? I know it's none of my business, but I think it might be worth remembering exactly what you believed when you first believed and trusted God for your salvation.

I appreciate your sincerity GD. And so with most other OSAS believers I know. Which I have also said often enough before. But it is somewhat of an optical illusion.

On the one hand, what you say doesn't in any way answer the point I made about the fallacy of special pleading.
But on the other hand, the scripture you cite could be made to prove several and even contradictory points. Sure, God is able to keep us. I have no dispute with that. It is indeed basic to all our faith. But being able does not create a rule that it will always happen. And neither did I ever doubt that God would keep me. But none of this adds up to OSAS. Unless you assume it in the first place. If you assume OSAS, then yes, this verse (and other similar vss) would be evidence of it. But it isn't proof at all. These verses are perfectly consistent with a non-OSAS view as well. God is able to keep me but I am also able to deny him.

Does this make my salvation uncertain? Not at all! If I have chosen to be Jesus' disciple with a willing and firm heart, then that is the end of the matter. If I made a fickle choice, if I wasn't really serious, perhaps just to see what I could get out of it, then I can certainly undo that choice. And I probably will. I would be one of the ones who Jesus spoke about as they were seed that fell on shallow soil, taking root quickly and growing fast, mesmerized perhaps by the newness of the faith, but as a fickle-minded person, soon turning away.

And neither does it mean that I am part of the cause of my own salvation. This is not synergy. He alone brings about my salvation. But the fact that he alone brings it about doesn't imply that my choice is meaningless. I chose to believe in him, just as I continually choose to stay with him. But my choosing, nor anything I do or subsequently, achieves my salvation. I chose to live in the house I am currently living in, but I had absolutely nothing to do with building it. It is only he who does this through his death and resurrection. All the scriptures you cite supposedly as proof of OSAS also support this view. The difference is that OSAS is illogical, whereas mine is not.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I appreciate your sincerity GD. And so with most other OSAS believers I know. Which I have also said often enough before. But it is somewhat of an optical illusion.

On the one hand, what you say doesn't in any way answer the point I made about the fallacy of special pleading.
But on the other hand, the scripture you cite could be made to prove several and even contradictory points. Sure, God is able to keep us. I have no dispute with that. It is indeed basic to all our faith. But being able does not create a rule that it will always happen. And neither did I ever doubt that God would keep me. But none of this adds up to OSAS. Unless you assume it in the first place. If you assume OSAS, then yes, this verse (and other similar vss) would be evidence of it. But it isn't proof at all. These verses are perfectly consistent with a non-OSAS view as well. God is able to keep me but I am also able to deny him.

Does this make my salvation uncertain? Not at all! If I have chosen to be Jesus' disciple with a willing and firm heart, then that is the end of the matter. If I made a fickle choice, if I wasn't really serious, perhaps just to see what I could get out of it, then I can certainly undo that choice. And I probably will. I would be one of the ones who Jesus spoke about as they were seed that fell on shallow soil, taking root quickly and growing fast, mesmerized perhaps by the newness of the faith, but as a fickle-minded person, soon turning away.

And neither does it mean that I am part of the cause of my own salvation. This is not synergy. He alone brings about my salvation. But the fact that he alone brings it about doesn't imply that my choice is meaningless. I chose to believe in him, just as I continually choose to stay with him. But my choosing, nor anything I do or subsequently, achieves my salvation. I chose to live in the house I am currently living in, but I had absolutely nothing to do with building it. It is only he who does this through his death and resurrection. All the scriptures you cite supposedly as proof of OSAS also support this view. The difference is that OSAS is illogical, whereas mine is not.

So, obviously you have chosen to place your faith in yourself, and
not in He who created it all. By your way of thinking, you can be
saved at breakfast and lose your salvation by dinner time. Good
luck in trusting yourself for your eternal destination.