If Evolution

Caino

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No, you've just continued to show your incredible delusion about that the Bible is and what it contains. You simply pick and choose like you're at the grocery store picking melons.

The LORD Jesus Christ that you supposedly believe in appeared to Paul and gave him the dispensation of the grace of God, something that you are clearly unaware of.


The cross was part of God's plans from before the world began. Your sheer ignorance is amazing.

Jesus taught the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for 3+ years.

After Jesus left a new compromised gospel appeared more to the liking of the Pagan world.

Eventually the original gospel will be preached and subdue all the world.

The bible is human and has lots of mistakes therefor one must choose what us true and let the rest die on the vine.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
As you also learned, YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise openly acknowledges the large number of transitional forms in the fossil record but expresses confidence that eventually, a superior creationist explanation will be found for them. His commendable honesty should be emulated by you, not disparaged.

6days: "You are again being dishonest. Wise does NOT say there are transitionals.

Dr. Wise's paper is titled "Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." I've linked to it. Do you think everyone else here doesn't realize that? Instead of doubling down on your dishonesty, admit the fact, and go on.

What he says is that evolutionists can interpret it that way...

Let's see what Dr. Wise actually says...
Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.[/
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/..._2_216-222.pdf

He's speaking to you. Come to terms with the fact. And then you won't have to reword what he said. Just accept it as it is.

Quotemining is just further dishonesty. Wise does NOT consider the fossils to be transitional.

He refers to them as "Transitional Forms." You know this. Why bother denying it? He says that creationists should call them "intermediates", for religious reasons, but admits willingly that they are strong evidence for evolution.

It's difficult, possibly, for you to be reminded of these facts by a fellow YE creationist. But that's the reality. Of course Wise thinks the "transitional forms" he mentioned are actually not connected by descent. But he agrees that they are strong evidence for such descent. He merely puts more faith in his particular religious beliefs than he puts in the data.

And he's willing to admit it, for which he deserves credit. You should learn to emulate him. It would have saved you considerable embarrassment this time.
 

CherubRam

New member
Barbarian observes:
As you also learned, YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise openly acknowledges the large number of transitional forms in the fossil record but expresses confidence that eventually, a superior creationist explanation will be found for them. His commendable honesty should be emulated by you, not disparaged.



Dr. Wise's paper is titled "Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." I've linked to it. Do you think everyone else here doesn't realize that? Instead of doubling down on your dishonesty, admit the fact, and go on.



Let's see what Dr. Wise actually says...
Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.[/
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/..._2_216-222.pdf

He's speaking to you. Come to terms with the fact. And then you won't have to reword what he said. Just accept it as it is.



He refers to them as "Transitional Forms." You know this. Why bother denying it? He says that creationists should call them "intermediates", for religious reasons, but admits willingly that they are strong evidence for evolution.

It's difficult, possibly, for you to be reminded of these facts by a fellow YE creationist. But that's the reality. Of course Wise thinks the "transitional forms" he mentioned are actually not connected by descent. But he agrees that they are strong evidence for such descent. He merely puts more faith in his particular religious beliefs than he puts in the data.

And he's willing to admit it, for which he deserves credit. You should learn to emulate him. It would have saved you considerable embarrassment this time.

Transitional Forms

There is evidence of different life forms transitioning, but there is no evidence of one becoming a different life form. The bible mentions that the serpent had legs at one time, never the less, it is still a serpent.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/10/snakes-grow-legs-evolution/snakes-grow-legs-evolution/

Genesis 3:14
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
 

Stripe

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Barbarian suggests that Stipe try to present some evidence for his [ideas].
Sure.

Billions of dead things frozen in rock laid down in water the world over.

Compelling evidence for a global flood.

But you aren't interested in evidence, only in nonsense designed to make rational discourse impossible.


Sent from my SM-A520F using TOL mobile app
 
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6days

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He's (Biblical creationist / paleontologist Kurt Wise) speaking to you. Come to terms with the fact. And then you won't have to reword what he said. Just accept it as it is.
I agree with virtually everything Kurt Wise says. He explains "Creation isn't a theory. The fact that God created the universe is not a theory, it's true. However, some of the details are not specifically nailed down in Scripture. Some issues such as creation, a global flood, and a young age for the earth are determined by Scripture, so they are not theories. My understanding from Scripture is that the universe is in the order of 6,000 years old. Once that has been determined by Scripture, it is a starting point that we build theories upon. It is within those boundaries that we can construct new theories" That quote from atheist site RationalWiki.
Yes, He is speaking to me. (Apparently not to you). As you say "Just accept it as it is."

Kurt Wise says that people who are evolutionists deny the veracity of scripture: "It is my understanding, for example, that the claim of an old earth denies the veracity of the first 11 chapters of Genesis (e.g., the order of creation, the distinctness of created kinds, the absence of pre-Fall carnivory, the lack of higher animal death before the Fall, the creation of Adam and Eve, the “very good” status of the creation at the end of the Creation Week, the great longevities of the patriarchs, the global nature of the Noahic Flood, the dispersion of people away from the Tower of Babel). This in turn challenges the integrity of any concept built upon these chapters. Yet, it is my understanding that every doctrine of Christianity stands upon the foundation laid in the first few chapters of Genesis (e.g., God is truth, God is a God of mercy and love, Scripture is true, all natural and moral evil on the earth can be traced back to man’s Fall, Christ’s return is global, Heaven is a perfect place with no sin or death or corruption of any sort). Thus, an earth that is millions of years old seems to challenge all the doctrines I hold dear." https://creation.com/kurt-p-wise-geology-in-six-days. Yes, He is speaking to me. (Apparently not to you).

Re your claim that Wise "acknowledges the large number of transitional forms in the fossil record....".
You are dishonest because Wise does NOT ever claim they are transitional. He does says its an evolutionary INTERPRETATION... "There is fossil evidence interpreted as transitional forms which can be understood to strongly support macroevolutionary theory." As you said 'Come to terms with the fact. And then you won't have to reword what he said. Just accept it as it is.'
 

Caino

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I agree with virtually everything Kurt Wise says. He explains "Creation isn't a theory. The fact that God created the universe is not a theory, it's true. However, some of the details are not specifically nailed down in Scripture. Some issues such as creation, a global flood, and a young age for the earth are determined by Scripture, so they are not theories. My understanding from Scripture is that the universe is in the order of 6,000 years old. Once that has been determined by Scripture, it is a starting point that we build theories upon. It is within those boundaries that we can construct new theories" That quote from atheist site RationalWiki.
Yes, He is speaking to me. (Apparently not to you). As you say "Just accept it as it is."

Kurt Wise says that people who are evolutionists deny the veracity of scripture: "It is my understanding, for example, that the claim of an old earth denies the veracity of the first 11 chapters of Genesis (e.g., the order of creation, the distinctness of created kinds, the absence of pre-Fall carnivory, the lack of higher animal death before the Fall, the creation of Adam and Eve, the “very good” status of the creation at the end of the Creation Week, the great longevities of the patriarchs, the global nature of the Noahic Flood, the dispersion of people away from the Tower of Babel). This in turn challenges the integrity of any concept built upon these chapters. Yet, it is my understanding that every doctrine of Christianity stands upon the foundation laid in the first few chapters of Genesis (e.g., God is truth, God is a God of mercy and love, Scripture is true, all natural and moral evil on the earth can be traced back to man’s Fall, Christ’s return is global, Heaven is a perfect place with no sin or death or corruption of any sort). Thus, an earth that is millions of years old seems to challenge all the doctrines I hold dear." https://creation.com/kurt-p-wise-geology-in-six-days. Yes, He is speaking to me. (Apparently not to you).

Re your claim that Wise "acknowledges the large number of transitional forms in the fossil record....".
You are dishonest because Wise does NOT ever claim they are transitional. He does says its an evolutionary INTERPRETATION... "There is fossil evidence interpreted as transitional forms which can be understood to strongly support macroevolutionary theory." As you said 'Come to terms with the fact. And then you won't have to reword what he said. Just accept it as it is.'


Scripture says different things about the same events at different times depending on when it was written or rewritten because scripture is human. But scripture has been used as an authority therefore religious people are lead to betray themselves into defending untenable positions.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Jesus taught the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for 3+ years.
How do you know that? Where did you get that information?

After Jesus left a new compromised gospel appeared more to the liking of the Pagan world.
How do you know that? Where did you get that information?

Eventually the original gospel will be preached and subdue all the world.
How do you know that? Where did you get that information?

The bible is human and has lots of mistakes therefor one must choose what us true and let the rest die on the vine.
The Bible claims to be GOD BREATHED and you just pick and choose to believe some of it and throw out other parts. How did you get so "smart"? Alien intervention?

You are a hypocrite and a very confused individual.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Barbarian observes:
Since RD seems to have conceded the fact that evolutionary theory is supported by numerous transitional forms and by the lack of transitionals where they shouldn't be, let's move on to other unequivocal and unambiguous evidence for common descent.

Anyone want to look at genetics next?
Since RD has done no such thing, let's actually talk about facts instead. The Barbarian is a very confused individual who has accepted fake knowledge in place of real knowledge.

Genetics will fail your theory even more so than "transitional fossils", since genetics is actually something that CAN be studied with repeated experimentation as opposed to making assumption about old bones in the ground.

...challenged you to substantiate your claim that there are no transitional forms, is not something I really expect any of you to do. But if you claim that there are no transitional forms, perhaps you can step up and show me where they missing. You might have read the statement from YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise, who conceded that they are numerous, giving many examples. Would you like me to show you that, again?

You've merely assumed the truth of your new religion of YE creationism and hope that stamping your foot and declaring you are right will be sufficient.
The Barbarian puts his subjective and biased "knowledge" up as the standard by which all things must be measured.

Are you suggesting that all life on earth shares a single common ancestor or do you have some other theory about the origin of life?

"Transitional fossils" have been the playground of the imagination for a very long time.

Dr. Wise (an honest creationist, remember) says you are wrong. If you're honest with yourself, you'll accept the fact and go on.
According to the confused Barbarian.
 

Caino

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How do you know that? Where did you get that information?


How do you know that? Where did you get that information?


How do you know that? Where did you get that information?


The Bible claims to be GOD BREATHED and you just pick and choose to believe some of it and throw out other parts. How did you get so "smart"? Alien intervention?

You are a hypocrite and a very confused individual.
If one reads the gospels you will see that Jesus taught his gospel for 3 years. And he told his apostles to keep his identity a secret.
 

Right Divider

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If one reads the gospels you will see that Jesus taught his gospel for 3 years. And he told his apostles to keep his identity a secret.
We call this type of answer a COP-OUT.

The RISEN and ASCENDED LORD Jesus Christ also appeared to Paul and gave Paul revelation.

You just cherry-pick the parts the Bible that you prefer to use and toss out the rest. You have no basis for this but your own arrogant opinion.
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Since RD seems to have conceded the fact that evolutionary theory is supported by numerous transitional forms and by the lack of transitionals where they shouldn't be, let's move on to other unequivocal and unambiguous evidence for common descent.

Anyone want to look at genetics next?

Since RD has done no such thing,

Since you haven't been able to find any examples, I assume you now realize that the claim of missing intermediate forms is a lie. If you'd like to backtrack and show us an example now, we can reopen the question. But until then, it's dead.

let's actually talk about facts instead.

Does that mean you're going to actually provide some evidence for your new beliefs, instead of generic ad homs?

The Barbarian is a very confused individual who has accepted fake knowledge in place of real knowledge.


Guess not.

Genetics will fail your theory even more so than "transitional fossils",

Sounds like another testable claim. Let's see if your belief matches reality...

since genetics is actually something that CAN be studied with repeated experimentation

Yep. For example, Linnaeus, hundreds of years ago, worked out a family tree of living things, based on their structure. Darwin predicted that it would be shown to be a map of common descent. And not surprisingly, genetic analysis shows the same lines of descent as Linnaeus, to a very high degree of precision.

Another example was the discovery that humans and other apes have different numbers of chromosomes. Humans have one pair less, but one pair looks remarkably like two ape chromosomes linked together. Scientists predicted that there was a fusion of the two chromosomes. Investigation showed the remains of telomeres (sequences marking the end of a chromosome) precisely where they would be if there had been a fusion.

Another experiment involved the GULO gene, which was at one time responsible for producing vitamin C in primates. But all apes, including humans, have a broken version of the gene. It doesn't matter, because apes have a diet so high in vitamin C that it's unnecessary.

Other groups of animals also have inactive genes for vitamin C, but they are damaged in a different way than in apes. So we know this mutation occurred before the evolution of apes.

Stuff like that, as opposed to creationists making assumption about old bones in the ground. This is a major difference between creationism and science.


..challenged you to substantiate your claim that there are no transitional forms, is not something I really expect any of you to do. But if you claim that there are no transitional forms, perhaps you can step up and show me where they missing. You might have read the statement from YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise, who conceded that they are numerous, giving many examples. Would you like me to show you that, again?

(more generic ad hom)

Perfect.

Are you suggesting that all life on earth shares a single common ancestor or do you have some other theory about the origin of life?

So far, all surviving life shows that there was a common ancestor. You have about as much in common, genetically with bacteria as you have differences. And we know this indicates common descent, since we can check genes of populations of known descent.

"Transitional fossils" have been the playground of the imagination for a very long time.

Since you can't find one case where there isn't a transitional, your claim falls apart on inspection.

Barbarian observes:
Dr. Wise (an honest creationist, remember) says you are wrong. If you're honest with yourself, you'll accept the fact and go on.

(desultory ad hom)

Pretty much all you have left, it seems.
 

Right Divider

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Barbarian observes:
Since RD seems to have conceded the fact that evolutionary theory is supported by numerous transitional forms and by the lack of transitionals where they shouldn't be, let's move on to other unequivocal and unambiguous evidence for common descent.
The Barbarian continues to claim victory when none was had. Just keep pounding that podium there Barbarian.

Evolutionists like to make any claim that they want regarding "fossils" since these sort of "facts" are not facts at all, but are biased interpretations of the nature of animals that were never observed by the claimants. History is filled with "transitional organization of lots of dead things", that were later shown to be complete fabrications from the start. Anyone can take a bunch of very old bones and place them is their preferred "order". This does NOTHING to actually PROVE that there is anything other than fantasy involved in the placement.

The evolutionary "history" of the horse is an excellent example of such devious "ordering" based on a fantasy about old bones.

I can see that you're going to use the same old tired hand-waving with genetics.
 

The Barbarian

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The Barbarian continues to claim victory when none was had. Just keep pounding that podium there Barbarian.

If you weren't prepared to back up your claim with evidence, it was probably a bad idea to make it. It would be easy to shut me up; just show me an example. Otherwise, the more you thrash around, the worse it gets for you.

Evolutionists like to make any claim that they want regarding "fossils" since these sort of "facts" are not facts at all, but are biased interpretations of the nature of animals that were never observed by the claimants.

Your fellow YE creationist Kurt Wise,(with a doctorate in Paleontology, no less) admits that they are "strong evidence" for Darwinian theory. So there's really no point in denying the fact.

The evolutionary "history" of the horse is an excellent example of such devious "ordering" based on a fantasy about old bones.

Let's test that belief, then. In the accepted phylogeny of horses shown here:
horse-evolution.jpg


Which step represents more change than is found within many mammalian species, today?

Think carefully. You don't want to give up on yet another challenge.

I can see that you're going to use the same old tired hand-waving with genetics.


TD, facing evidence...

vm3.jpg


I just gave you a few examples of the way scientific experimentation in genetics has confirmed evolution. There's a lot more. If you doubt any of the examples I gave you, feel free to challenge me on any specific one.
 

The Barbarian

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(Barbarian suggests that Stipe try to present some evidence for his new religion)

Sure.

Billions of dead things frozen in rock laid down in water the world over.

Separated by fossils in desert sands, fossil forests, and ancient rivers. Tell us how forests and deserts had time to form and be buried during the flood you imagine.

Compelling evidence for a global flood.

Nope. Unless you can explain how those forests and deserts popped into existence in the middle your flood.

Explain how that happened, Stipe.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Transitional Forms

There is evidence of different life forms transitioning, but there is no evidence of one becoming a different life form. The bible mentions that the serpent had legs at one time, never the less, it is still a serpent.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/10/snakes-grow-legs-evolution/snakes-grow-legs-evolution/

Genesis 3:14
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

Which one of these is a lizard?

A.
28945.jpg


B.
k8o1p0jiuipz.jpg
 
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