God's Truth
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You made that up. Show where I said you or anyone else does not obey God.
How the Gospel Works
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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You made that up. Show where I said you or anyone else does not obey God.
musterion
Well-known member
YOU DAMNABLE LIAR, THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID AND YOU KNOW IT.
If you decided to keep your mouth shut about how no one on TOL obeys Christ as well as you do, you would have nothing to post ever again.
God's Truth
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I don't say what you are accusing me of. That is so untruthful what you are saying about me.
Ask Mr. Religion
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No one in my camp denies that God ordains righteously what men do wickedly.
Scripture teaches us that it is out of division that the truth is revealed (1 Cor. 11:19). Couple that teaching with 2 Cor. 10:5 and we have our answer to what you think is some dilemma. Again, as I have noted, God's ordaining includes the means by which His ends are achieved. That God ordained the opposition you identify is for at least one reason, that His ends, that is, revelation of truth to those who have ears to hear, may be made manifest.
AMR
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Ask Mr. Religion
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Anthony Burges:
...grant the Text [Eze. 33:11] to be comprehensive of Eternal death, as many other places are; such that, God would not have any to perish, but come to the knowledge of the truth, 1 Tim. 2.:4. Then the answer is known, which may easily be made good, though it be not my work now, God has an approving will, and an effective or decreeing will. God’s approving will is carried out to the objects, as good in it self; but Gods Effective will is, when He intends to bring a thing about. God had an approving will, that Adam should stand, therefore He gave him a command, and threatened him if he did fall; yet He had not an effective will, to make him to stand, for then who could have hindered it? Thus Christ’s tears over Jerusalem (How often would I have gathered thee, and thou wouldest not?) were not Crocodiles’ tears (as some say the Calvinists make them) for though Christ, as God, had not decreed the conversion of the Jews, yet the thing itself was approved of, and commanded, and he as the Minister of the New Testament, affectionately desired it: So here in the Text, God by this pathetical expression, does declare, how acceptable and desireable a thing it is in itself, that the Jews should be converted; how distasteful and unpleasant their damnation was: therefore mark the expression, He does not say, I do not will the death of the wicked, but I have no pleasure in it: And if that of the Arminians be true, that God does effectually will the conversion of all, why then are not all converted? Who hath resisted his will?
src: Spiritual Refining, Sermon 66, “Showing that the Damnation of Wicked Men is unpleasing to God, and that which He delights not in.” p. 403-408
src: Spiritual Refining, Sermon 66, “Showing that the Damnation of Wicked Men is unpleasing to God, and that which He delights not in.” p. 403-408
Notice the distinction that Burges makes about the kind of will it is that expresses a desire in God that is real. It is the same distinction we've been making all along about a type of love for the lost-- a love for the world at large, a love expressed to those who hear the Gospel, and a love specifically for the elect. Yet the first two types of love are what Burges calls a "pathetical expression" - the thing is true in itself that the Jews should be converted. Thus, Burges notes that it is real concern for people based on a revealed desire (that is God has revealed a call to sinners to repent).
That revealed desire that God has for men to repent is sufficient for us. It is sufficient that God has called us to preach to sinners and that He has loved the world and sinners and sent the Gospel into the world to redeem.
The moment we start asking about "how much" God loves those people or start asking questions of decree and hidden things is when we get into trouble. We don't need to know, as creatures, how God really "feels" about people in order to be sorrowful that the wicked should perish. God, as He is in Himself, is not our example. We are creatures. It is enough to know that what has been revealed is the repentance of sinners and a desire that men would come to salvation.
It seems to me that when we start claiming that it's not enough that God's love is shown to sinners by sending His Son into the world and sending His Gospel forward then we're getting into the same kind of trouble that others are. For we also believe that God's decree does not depend upon the will of the creature and His fore-love of the elect is very precious and specific. We also, in pathetic language, have this fore-love of the elect compared to reprobation to the point that it says that God "hates" those He passes over. Thus, we twist ourselves in pretzels when we try to press things too hard and start lecturing each other that you can't possibly be motivated to preach profusely until we know the true mind of God and what it "really" means that He desires the repentance of others.
I think Burgess' explanation is perfectly sound but I see others not content here and push God's desire past what Burgess is saying and keep mixing in other kinds of love and desire in God. I can (and do) care about the lost and I think that God's revealed desire for sinners shows more love than I'm capable of mustering. It is sufficient for me as His creature to preach the Word, pleading with real tears that men would repent.
AMR
Ask Mr. Religion
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For example:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Romans-10-13&p=4882021&viewfull=1#post4882021
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Mr-Religion&p=2251901&viewfull=1#post2251901
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-vs-Enyart)&p=1538462&viewfull=1#post1538462
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...heism-part-2&p=1459344&viewfull=1#post1459344
AMR
glorydaz
Well-known member
Which sounds like you agree with what Paul says here. I'm glad to hear that.
2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Unfortunately, she refuses to hear what anyone else says. It's frustrating, isn't it? It's the same incessant boasting we have to listen to over and over again in every thread she's allowed to stay in.
The battle is between obedience to the law and the obedience of faith. She hates the obedience of faith and all those who are justified by faith. It's sad....very sad. :sigh:
Ask Mr. Religion
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I always agree with the inspired writings of Holy Writ. I suspect your gladness belies more than that, however. Better to be up front and present the agenda you have in mind rather that attempt these sort of tactics.Which sounds like you agree with what Paul says here. I'm glad to hear that.2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Be reconciled. Observe that Paul is here addressing himself to believers. Paul declares, that he brings to them (believers) every day this embassy. Christ therefore, did not suffer, merely that he might once expiate our sins, nor was the gospel appointed merely with a view to the pardon of those sins which we committed previously to baptism, but that, as we daily sin, so we might, also, by a daily remission, be received by God into his favor. For this is a continued embassy, which must be with great care and perseverance sounded forth in the Church, until the end of the world; and the gospel cannot be preached, unless remission of sins is promised.
We also have here an express and suitable declaration for refuting the impious tenet of the Romanists, which calls upon us to seek the remission of sins after Baptism from some other source than from the expiation that was effected through the death of Christ. Now this doctrine is commonly held in all the schools of Rome—that, after baptism, we merit the remission of sins by penitence, through means of the aid of the keys, (Matthew 16:19)—as if baptism itself could confer this upon us without penitence. By the term penitence, however, Rome means satisfactions. But what does Paul say here? He calls us to go, not less after baptism, than before it, to the one expiation made by Christ, that we may know that we always obtain it gratuitously. Further, all Rome's foolish talk as to the administration of the keys is to no purpose, inasmuch as they conceive of keys apart from the Gospel, while they are nothing else than that testimony of a gratuitous reconciliation, which is made to us in the Gospel.
Other than the proper understanding of the passage given above that you have offered up in support of some argument contrary to what I have stated in this thread, my additional point here is that extracting a passage from its surrounding context (2 Cor. 5:18-21) and the full counsel of Scripture's teachings elsewhere in hopes of prevailing in some argument will often result in manifest error. :AMR:
AMR
heir
TOL Subscriber
You can plead with men to "repent" all day until you are blue in the face but that's not what God would have you to preach as the gospel by which they can be saved. So stop pretending like you care.
heir
TOL Subscriber
He is only in agreement with Paul if he preaches the gospel of Christ as the power of God, but as is with most "reformists" they can't get past the sin/sins issue being settle for all 2000 years ago (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV) so what is the likelihood that they preach the good news of our salvation?Which sounds like you agree with what Paul says here. I'm glad to hear that.
2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
musterion
Well-known member
She's no different from Meshak, who who were banned for pretty much the same thing.
musterion
Well-known member
A reformed man and his son are sitting on the porch.
"Pop, does God love everybody?"
"Why of course He does, son! Why would you even ask that?"
Kid thinks quietly for a minute.
"Because the pastor used the words elect and reprobate and explained what they mean. He said they don't just mean "saved" and "lost." He said the elect are the ones God chose to save a long time ago, and the reprobates are the ones He didn't choose to save. That's what he said."
"Yes, that's true. And?"
"So how can God love someone He doesn't want to save?"
"...Well, you see son, He does love them. He loves them and wants to see them repent and trust Christ and be saved."
Kid thinks again.
"But they're reprobates."
"Yes, and?"
"What I mean is. . .God has already decided He won't save a whole lot of people. He decided that before creation. That's what the pastor said."
"Yes, son, that's what the pastor said because it's true and it's what we believe. But I don't see why you're confused."
"Because if God doesn't love someone enough to save them from the Lake of Fire, does He really love them at all?"
Dad sighs, slightly irritated but tries to hide it behind a forced smile and forced patience.
"YES, He still loves them, son! He DOES love them! He DOES! He doesn't WANT to send them to the Lake of Fire, their own sins SEND them there! THEY CHOOSE to go there!"
"But if He already decided way back before anyone was even born --"
"That's enough. No more questions about this. You'll understand it all someday. For now, you're just a little confused."
Kid thinks yet again as Pop rises and goes into the house. Door slams.
Under his breath, kid says,
"One of us is."
"Pop, does God love everybody?"
"Why of course He does, son! Why would you even ask that?"
Kid thinks quietly for a minute.
"Because the pastor used the words elect and reprobate and explained what they mean. He said they don't just mean "saved" and "lost." He said the elect are the ones God chose to save a long time ago, and the reprobates are the ones He didn't choose to save. That's what he said."
"Yes, that's true. And?"
"So how can God love someone He doesn't want to save?"
"...Well, you see son, He does love them. He loves them and wants to see them repent and trust Christ and be saved."
Kid thinks again.
"But they're reprobates."
"Yes, and?"
"What I mean is. . .God has already decided He won't save a whole lot of people. He decided that before creation. That's what the pastor said."
"Yes, son, that's what the pastor said because it's true and it's what we believe. But I don't see why you're confused."
"Because if God doesn't love someone enough to save them from the Lake of Fire, does He really love them at all?"
Dad sighs, slightly irritated but tries to hide it behind a forced smile and forced patience.
"YES, He still loves them, son! He DOES love them! He DOES! He doesn't WANT to send them to the Lake of Fire, their own sins SEND them there! THEY CHOOSE to go there!"
"But if He already decided way back before anyone was even born --"
"That's enough. No more questions about this. You'll understand it all someday. For now, you're just a little confused."
Kid thinks yet again as Pop rises and goes into the house. Door slams.
Under his breath, kid says,
"One of us is."
Good story. To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is unthinkable and unteachable. Those that believe such terrible things about God are not Christians, nor do they posses the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of truth.
Eagles Wings
New member
But a man should not (and indeed cannot) repent if GOD has ordained him not to repent.
Making GOD the direct and only cause of men not repenting.
musterion
Well-known member
Yep. That's some watertight, airtight, adamantium-coated logic you got there, Tam. Completely impervious.
Sufficient for what?
Certainly not for the conversion of anyone.
Your words will only be noise because no one can believe anything that GOD has not already ordained them to believe.
GOD has already ordained everyone to believe what they believe is truth.
Your words have no power for neither the believer or the non-believer, because they are only believing or not believing what GOD has ordained them to believe or not to believe.
The cause of what folks believe at any given moment is exactly what GOD ordained them to believe regardless of any preaching going on anywhere.
Lon
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It isn't that important. We disagree. So what? Hurt either of us? :nono: Rather, talking about 'why' we are different yet both love the Lord is incredibly important. The 'us/them' is often just 'us.' On this, I think it rather helps one systematize their scriptures. There are times it is a big deal, but I don't believe this time. As I said, there are fellow MAD that agree with me on this. It crosses borders. :e4e: