How the Gospel Works

[musterion]

1. According to Calvinism, is it ultimately because of God's will that reprobates cannot believe?

Yes. He foresaw them - He wasn't ignorant of them - and He chose not to elect them for salvation.

2. According to Calvinism, does God hold reprobates responsible for not believing, as if they have the power to choose to believe?

Yes. He damns them for lack of faith, as it is clearly taught in the Bible.

3. When God damns those He didn't elect to save, can He be telling the truth when He says the damnation is due to the unbelief?

No. It can't be due to their unbelief because they didn't choose it, He did. That makes Him a liar.

The God of Calvinism is just that - the God of Calvinism. It is not the non-lying God of the Bible.

 

[Tambora]

It is God's will to use the means of believers preaching the Gospel, to spread the message to His elect.

So it's not by GOD's ordained election before anyone was born and did anything (which includes any preaching)?

 

[musterion]

So it's not by GOD's ordained election before anyone was born and did anything (which includes any preaching)?

Prepare for big time Obfuscation Mode, where straight answers do not exist.

 

[Nang]

So it's not by GOD's ordained election before anyone was born and did anything (which includes any preaching)?

Election is God's choosing who will be given ears to hear and spiritually comprehend the Gospel message that has the power to save. This requires the indwelling Holy Spirit, who abides in the regenerated souls He has elected to give new hearts and are those He has raised to new life. John 3:1-16

 

[musterion]

See?

 

[Nang]

1. According to Calvinism, is it ultimately because of God's will that reprobates cannot believe?

Yes. He foresaw them - He wasn't ignorant of them - and He chose not to elect them for salvation.

2. According to Calvinism, does God hold reprobates responsible for not believing, as if they have the power to choose to believe?

Yes. He damns them for lack of faith, as it is clearly taught in the Bible.

3. When God damns those He didn't elect to save, can He be telling the truth when He says the damnation is due to the unbelief?

No. It can't be due to their unbelief because they didn't choose it, He did. That makes Him a liar.

The God of Calvinism is just that - the God of Calvinism. It is not the non-lying God of the Bible.

The correct answers to all this is found in the Federal Headship of Adam.

Adam chose to act against God's word, representing his wife and offspring. God imputed a death sentence upon Adam for his sin of unbelief and disobedience, and his wife and all offspring received the same imputation of guilt.

It is important to grasp Federal Headship and its consequences in the first Adam, in order to grasp and appreciate the Federal Headship of the last Adam (Jesus Christ) as He represented His spiritual church and children.

Just as sin was imputed to the first Adam's progeny, so too is Christ's righteousness is imputed to His spiritual offspring, who He represented in His incarnation, death, and resurrection.

 

[Nang]

See?

Neither of you do see . . it is your problem, not mine.

 

[Nang]

I listen to AMR when he is correct, which on a lot of things he is. I'm glad to say it. On the fundamental character of God, he's wrong. Lon's wrong. But you're even more wrong because you lie.

Now stop addressing me. Tend to your home.

I do not lie.

So, why do you rebuke me in this manner, but have nothing similar to say to all the female posters in your MAD club?

 

[Tambora]

1. According to Calvinism, is it ultimately because of God's will that reprobates cannot believe?

Yes. He foresaw them - He wasn't ignorant of them - and He chose not to elect them for salvation.

2. According to Calvinism, does God hold reprobates responsible for not believing, as if they have the power to choose to believe?

Yes. He damns them for lack of faith, as it is clearly taught in the Bible.

3. When God damns those He didn't elect to save, can He be telling the truth when He says the damnation is due to the unbelief?

No. It can't be due to their unbelief because they didn't choose it, He did. That makes Him a liar.

The God of Calvinism is just that - the God of Calvinism. It is not the non-lying God of the Bible.

Pretty much.

GOD ordains that some believe lies.
So the believing of lies is directly caused by GOD.
It is not unbelief of their own accord, but according to what GOD has chosen for them to believe.
That makes GOD the cause of men believing lies.


And get this ....
Even the ones that GOD elected, He let them be blind and enemies of the gospel for a time with the promise their blindness would be lifted by Him.
Makes you wonder why the national election of Israel does not hold water if being elected means your salvation is secured before you do anything (which includes believing or not believing).

They base their doctrine on the election of Jacob (the nation in the womb), but reject that nation is truly elect of GOD.

So I can only agree with you, Musty, that their "election" doctrine is skewed and flip-flops between man's responsibility and GOD's.

 

[musterion]

They base their doctrine on the election of Jacob (the nation in the womb), but reject that nation is truly elect of GOD.

Baffling, isn't it.

 

[Tambora]

The correct answers to all this is found in the Federal Headship of Adam.

Was Adam ever saved after he fell?

 

[Tambora]

Baffling, isn't it.

It's a mystery!
:chuckle:

 

[Nang]

Was Adam ever saved after he fell?

I don't know.

 

[Nang]

Pretty much.

GOD ordains that some believe lies.
So the believing of lies is directly caused by GOD.
It is not unbelief of their own accord, but according to what GOD has chosen for them to believe.
That makes GOD the cause of men believing lies.

Why do you want to blame God for what Adam caused?

And get this ....
Even the ones that GOD elected, He let them be blind and enemies of the gospel for a time with the promise their blindness would be lifted by Him.

All humans inherit the human nature that Adam corrupted. They are all born spiritually blind because of his sin. God, in His great love and grace, has remedied this tragedy, by the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

Yes, He was promised, but in the fallen state, no man can believe the promise, and thus no sinner seeks Him, apart from God's drawing. John 6:44

Makes you wonder why the national election of Israel does not hold water if being elected means your salvation is secured before you do anything (which includes believing or not believing)

The election of Israel was not salvific. Israel was elected by God only as a witness and testimony of God amongst the heathen nations; thus making the nation a prophetic type of the spiritual elect body of believers; individuals who would be redeemed by the promised Seed.

They base their doctrine on the election of Jacob (the nation in the womb), but reject that nation is truly elect of GOD.

Jacob was an individual saved according to the promise of a Redeemer, made known through covenant between God and Abraham. It was not the same as the covenant made with Abraham promising nations. There is national election that differs from redemptive (saving) Elect.

So I can only agree with you, Musty, that their "election" doctrine is skewed and flip-flops between man's responsibility and GOD's.

You have been badly confused with bad teaching, and find enjoyment in finding fault with others. The Reformed view is very careful to balance human accountability with divine Sovereignty.

It is those who insist on sinners retaining a free will in order that they may sovereignly determine their own redemption, who sow confusion.

God's grace alone, can give any of us eyes to see clearly . . .and the necessary and changed hearts that are slow to blaspheme and desirous to bring nothing but glory to the Person and Name of God Almighty.

 

[Lon]

You've said that before and I've said this before: IT DOES MATTER because one of us is DEAD WRONG about the very character of God Himself. Don't you dare try to brush that off as a minor disagreeable matter. It isn't and never will be.

:nono: Tell me, is any one NOT saved because of it as things play out? :nono: Does it affect you or I and our Salvation? :nono:

It is too, a minor disagreeable matter.

Even some Calvinists will disagree with me on this point. It does effect one's theology understanding, BUT for me, it is an overt worry because God is Sovereign. I am not defined by my freewill or lack thereof. "Choosing" doesn't make me who I am. "In Christ" is who we are. If there are mysteries, GREAT! Faith is just faith, whether it is blind or completely rational and thought out. The Object of our faith is Who matters. Most of my life, I was not a Calvinist. You were something before MAD. Did "MAD" save you? :nono: It is just a revelation for you that you are thankful for. Same here. -Lon

 

[musterion]

:nono: Tell me, is any one NOT saved because of it as things play out? :nono:

Yes indeed...many people (like some right here on TOL) who hear nothing about God except what the Reformed have mischaracterized for centuries, and so resent Him for something He hasn't even done and so are immunized against the saving Gospel by sanctified ecclesiarchichal blasphemy.

Now my having said that, some Calvinist will think, "Yeah? So? If they're elect they'll get zapped awake eventually, but they're probably reprobates anyway." I'd like to think that's not your heart.

 

[glorydaz]

Why do you want to blame God for what Adam caused?

Why must you blame anyone? Adam only did what you, yourself, would have done. God created man with a body of flesh, with needs and desires. It wasn't like God was surprised that Adam would fail. Adam failed just as we all fail until we turn to God. That's been the goal from the beginning.

All humans inherit the human nature that Adam corrupted. They are all born spiritually blind because of his sin. God, in His great love and grace, has remedied this tragedy, by the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

We all have the same human nature Adam was created with. He did what we do....he chose wrongly. He failed for the same reason we do. I realize this simple fact has been thrown by the way side in favor of a bunch of made up complicated folderol by a lot of people, but it doesn't mean it isn't so.

You have been badly confused with bad teaching, and find enjoyment in finding fault with others.

Yes, you are, Nang, and I'm sure you will find enjoyment in finding fault with what I said.:wave2:

 

[Tambora]

Why do you want to blame God for what Adam caused?

Can man cause anything outside the will of GOD?

The election of Israel was not salvific

Then stop using it as a proof-text for the elect.

Jacob was an individual saved according to the promise of a Redeemer, made known through covenant between God and Abraham. It was not the same as the covenant made with Abraham promising nations. There is national election that differs from redemptive (saving) Elect.

So there are two different groups of GOD's elect that GOD uses differently.
Where have I heard that before????
Oh yeah, MAD.

You have been badly confused with bad teaching, and find enjoyment in finding fault with others. The Reformed view is very careful to balance human accountability with divine Sovereignty.

Really?
Who do you say is sovereign of the wicked of the world?

It is those who insist on sinners retaining a free will in order that they may sovereignly determine their own redemption, who sow confusion.

No, it is we that puts the responsibility where it lies, with man choosing to believe GOD or not.

God's grace alone, can give any of us eyes to see clearly

That's what GOD says He will do for national Israel.
Why don't you believe Him when He says He will do that for national Israel?

 

[musterion]

The election of Israel was not salvific

Then stop using it as a proof-text for the elect.

Bullseye.

 

[Tambora]

The biblical answer is found in the Federal Headship of Adam.

If Adam was saved before he had any children, why would his headship be for the unsaved?